A&A Global 1940 Essays: The Pact of Steel: Assisting Italy (Germany)

[weddingsinger]

Germany should take S. Europe if you want the option for German help in the Med (or, at least, a German transport to put an inf in Cairo and achieve an N.O). 
Yugoslavia can also be useful in German hands… put an airbase there and now 6 planes can scramble into the zone (though I’ve only done that once).

Bulgarian infantry aren’t that useful to Italy, really, unless you use them to help invade Russia.  Those 4 inf and 2 tanks can open up some blockers for Germany.

I am a fan of getting Italy some money, but, in the end, the easiest fast money for them is to get one or more of their N.O., especially no enemy ships in the Med, Roman Empire (Greece, S. France, and Gibraltor)

[simon33]

@Arthur:

Without major German help, the chance of Italy taking and holding Cairo is less than 10%.  A huge number of UK forces can get there in the first few rounds, and the number of Italian transports should quickly drop to zero.  I have only lost Cairo when the dice gods decided to curse me with massively bad luck.  If Egypt falls from Italian forces alone, I usually forfeit the game.  That is like Germany failing in Paris.

That is true so long as Taranto is successfully done. If Tobruk is done successfully instead the odds might rise to 15%.

If neither is done and SZ98 isn’t blocked out nor planes flown towards Egypt, the odds are >50%. Land on T-J, hit Alexandria and Sudan, goodnight Egypt I2.

[Gargantua]

Not enough people talk about Italy supporting Germany in Russia.

Italian mechanized/armor units in russia is the single most critical component of a successful Russia push by the axis.

[weddingsinger]

@Gargantua:

Not enough people talk about Italy supporting Germany in Russia.

Italian mechanized/armor units in russia is the single most critical component of a successful Russia push by the axis.

What do you use for that?  Do you buy tanks for Italy?

Tomorrow morning I’m in a fact-to-face game and will have to make a choice about this… Bulgaria, Greece on I1, then move to Russia.  But what to buy on I1 and I2.

[DessertFox599]

Tanks and mech are a powerful tool on the axises belt in gerenal. If italy gets smashed turn one AND has no chance of recovery,  then tanks, mechs, and the occasional plane. Just dont let italy take ukraine. Germany needs those for a few extra tanks and some slow movers

[Ichabod]

Great points above. Highly unlikely that Italy ever takes Cairo. If so, it’s due to lots of German investment and it may not come to fruition in time to be worth it. I think Italy bringing the can openers is critically important to win the game. There may be a time that Germany has to land their airforce after an Italian can opener due to allied landings (Ger spends a lot on ground in the west while using air to hold a critical spot).

If you plan to stack Tambov, don’t let Italy take Rostov. If you plan to stack Bryansk, then don’t let Italy get Ukraine AND w. Ukraine and Cauc or Rostov. Either case Germany needs to be able to build an mIC on Rostov or Caucasus.

Also, the original poster said something to the effect of giving Bulgaria to Italy. Disagree with that. No need to elaborate. Also, Italy should not be hitting Yugo and Greece (however many rounds later). I think it too much for little ole Mussolini to handle if he thinks he’s got great aspirations. I guess if you give them Bulgaria maybe.

[Arthur Bomber Harris]

100% correct that Italian canopeners is key in the European theater.  They give so much mobility to the Axis forces.  Italy takes a territory and Germany can reinforce it with both land units and planes.  Allied forces must be very careful of coming within range of blitzes after Italy removes any blockers.  Key to this plan is buying 1 tank + 1 mech on I1.  They reach the front in time for crucial I3 and I4 moves.  Don’t get too distracted about capturing Egypt unless there is a disastrous UK1 turn.

[Kreuzfeld]

Bulgarian Italy will change the italian canopener in russia from bad, to a monster. Italy will then be able to canopen with 2 pz, 2 mech, 4 inf , 1 bomber +2-3 ftrs. This means that the soviet will never be able to actually block the canopener for one turn. The soviets would have to commit at least 10 infs to block it.

[oysteilo]

@Kreuzfeld:

Bulgarian Italy will change the italian canopener in russia from bad, to a monster. Italy will then be able to canopen with 2 pz, 2 mech, 4 inf , 1 bomber +2-3 ftrs. This means that the soviet will never be able to actually block the canopener for one turn. The soviets would have to commit at least 10 infs to block it.

This is why you should not attck southern france with Italy. As many as possible of the Northern Italy units should start marching east right away, add a couple of artillery to Kreuzfeld units and you are good to go.

[KaLeu]

Isn’t that a bit slow?

I1: take Bulgaria
I2: units move to Romania
I3: can-opening into Bessarabia and/or Eastern Poland

So in that scenario, the German followup will be as late as G4.

[oysteilo]

@Herr:

Isn’t that a bit slow?

I1: take Bulgaria
I2: units move to Romania
I3: can-opening into Bessarabia and/or Eastern Poland

So in that scenario, the German followup will be as late as G4.

I think the important can-opening happens around (I4), I5, I6 in order to break through into volgograd and caucasus and later to threaten middle east by italy taking NW persia

[aequitas-et-veritas]

With Bulgaria, Yugo and Greece given to Italy, what punch will Germany have?
Any Allied player will be happy to harvest Italy…

[KaLeu]

@oysteilo:

@Herr:

Isn’t that a bit slow?

I1: take Bulgaria
I2: units move to Romania
I3: can-opening into Bessarabia and/or Eastern Poland

So in that scenario, the German followup will be as late as G4.

I think the important can-opening happens around (I4), I5, I6 in order to break through into volgograd and caucasus and later to threaten middle east by italy taking NW persia

The idea of can-opening is, to take the territory with Italy in order to allow Germany, and especially the German planes, to reinforce it against a Russian counterstrike. So I don’t think that any Italian drive to the south servers the purpose of can-opening because Russia is unlikely to have sufficient forces to strike back at either Volgograd or the Caucasus anyway in case the Germans would have taken it without Italian assistance. Which doesn’t imply that going that way is bad for Italy because there’s a lot of bonus to be had. But if you’re talking can-opening, then I’d say Bryansk on I5 would be the way to go.

@aequitas:

With Bulgaria, Yugo and Greece given to Italy, what punch will Germany have?
Any Allied player will be happy to harvest Italy…

Agreed. I’d much rather give Bulgaria to Germany to assimilate those troops and add some punch to the German drive into Russia.

[taamvan]

The best thing about that mobile force of 4 tanks 2-4 mechs (plus 2 fighters and an SB) is that you can threaten all up and down the line, and just placing 2, 3, 4 infantry in the block still won’t be enough to ensure no-breakthrough, so they just keep falling back.  If Russia did try to defend the squares in depth, they lose too much to attrition.

You can break it into two or more groups, and drive them anywhere on the Russian front so your options remain open.  The bomber can blow away blockers by itself, so you can even threaten to open multiple blocks/backfield areas.

After you use the can-opener, the units usually die, and the threat of future uses is gone, which was the biggest advantage.

Dave’s Rescue
I1 = Use the TT to take your Tank in Africa to Greece or Italy, now you have 4 at the end of your turn (1 bought, 1 NI, 1 Albania, 1 Tobruk)

[simon33]

@oysteilo:

@Herr:

Isn’t that a bit slow?

I1: take Bulgaria
I2: units move to Romania
I3: can-opening into Bessarabia and/or Eastern Poland

So in that scenario, the German followup will be as late as G4.

I think the important can-opening happens around (I4), I5, I6 in order to break through into volgograd and caucasus and later to threaten middle east by italy taking NW persia

I suppose you can reach Rostov by I5 which is still useful in some cases but still too late to allow planes to land on Bryansk when the German main force moves in.

I’m with Herr KaLeun. These forces going to Italy weakens the German spearhead and does little for Italian can opening that can’t be done by buying a mech or two.

[Chris_Henry]

I disagree with a good chunk of this strategy. There’s a lot of factors here that I think are being forgotten or overlooked.

As others have stated, giving all those territories to Italy doesn’t do a lot of good. Yugoslavia, Southern France, Bulgaria. Those are all much better used for Germany for two reasons. 1) Germany is the one who will ultimately dictate victory or defeat, they can much more effectively utilize that money. 2) The units from Bulgaria/money gained from European territories is not essential to Italian playability. The money they make is still so small, that you wouldn’t be able to ferry all of those units you’ve now activated to North Africa. It would take a few turns just to do that. Not an economical use, in my opinion.

Also, you mention the need to neutralize South Africa. While I understand your point on the UK building a mix of tanks and/or mech’s there, that is largely contingent on what Germany is doing up in Europe. If pressure is being applied, the UK will not be able to afford to divert a large some of money to the South Africa factory. That said, to play devil’s advocate, if the UK isn’t being harassed or threatened in any way, then yes, they can pump three units a turn down there. I think if that happens though, you’ve already lost the ability to “neutralize” it anyways.

I don’t fully agree that the Middle East will be untouched by that point either. If I’m ever the UK, I always immediately sent the infantry in West India west toward the Middle East and North Africa. I don’t divert too much UK Pacific money to this venture, but with the activation of Persia, and maybe a tank sent, that force and an aircraft within range can easily overtake the Iraqi standing army, thus robbing the Axis of that boost if they reach the area. The survivors of this small force, along with anything from South Africa, seem often to then reach/reinforce Cairo around the same time.

For German help, I tend to immediately build a destroyer and transport off of Southern France. I’ll then increase that naval force slowly as the game dictates in other areas. Germany, in my mind, is perfectly set up to attack/hold/reinforce Gibraltar when/if the Axis take it. I usually have the Germans defend there, while the Italians build up a defensive force in Morocco. Again, this is assuming they reach that far before the US comes in. But that’s also why I build a German transport right away. They can assist in getting west in North Africa more quickly, while other Italian forces can marshal strength for an assault on Cairo.

I’ll admit, I don’t do it often, but I fully realize and understand the large benefits of Italy can-opening the USSR as well. It’s a well versed strategy. Even if you don’t commit 100% Italian effort to it, even an initial wave early in Barbarossa can pay huge dividends to Germany for the first couple of turns in the assault.

The Italian NO’s are Italy’s best option to see real money come in. And the Italian NO’s seem to me to be something that have to be moved on quickly. Gibraltar, Southern France, and Greece are the obvious three to take and hold for the one NO, Cairo will be harder. Taking essentially all of North Africa also requires some speed. Land troops along the coast to take them all quickly. This is all assumed that the UK navy has been dealt with after Taranto as well, which it should be. If those can be achieved relatively early, it helps to get the strength needed to assault Cairo. German defense of Gibraltar will help alleviate the strain of Italian resources to help make this happen as well.

All in all, I generally see Italy as an Axis stall tactic. While it’s hard to win the game if Italy has done terribly, it also isn’t essential for Italy to go ham over the Mediterranean/Middle East/Africa to assure victory either. By getting NO’s and staying somewhat aggressive, you make the Allies respond. Every IPC spent by the UK and USA that goes toward the Mediterranean is that much less being focused on Germany as it attempts to smash through to Moscow.

[thespaceman]

Hi.

Gib/greece/ sth france is easy to get but hard to hold once us is in the game.

Active uk building in sth africa or factories in iraq or somewhere like that will shut down any hope of getting egypt.

Morrocco cant hold against us led invasion around t3 -5.

So for long term i either see italy as guarding france with 5 inf a turn or something or providing can openers and fodder to russian front.

If going for a combined crush on turkey things can get interesting as this can open the door to a lot of ipcs but a hard nut to crack without major diversion of forces.

[aequitas-et-veritas]

You nailed it Chris_Henry!

Nuff said. 8-)

[KaLeu]

@Chris_Henry:

For German help, I tend to immediately build a destroyer and transport off of Southern France. I’ll then increase that naval force slowly as the game dictates in other areas. Germany, in my mind, is perfectly set up to attack/hold/reinforce Gibraltar when/if the Axis take it. I usually have the Germans defend there, while the Italians build up a defensive force in Morocco. Again, this is assuming they reach that far before the US comes in. But that’s also why I build a German transport right away. They can assist in getting west in North Africa more quickly, while other Italian forces can marshal strength for an assault on Cairo.

Gibraltar in Axis hands, will force the US to respond even while still at peace. Axis transports in SZ91 and to some degree even in SZ92, pose a direct threat to America itself and/or to the lightly defended southern parts of Africa. So the US will build a fleet in SZ101 that will at least match whatever the Axis has around Gibraltar, simply because they have to. Once that fleet is there, the obvious thing to do is to add a few transports to it and aim for an amphibious assault. I really can’t see Germany and Italy defending Gibraltar and Morocco against the US.

[Chris_Henry]

@Herr:

I really can’t see Germany and Italy defending Gibraltar and Morocco against the US.

I definitely agree Herr KaLeun. That’s largely my point. They won’t be able to hold when the Americans come, not without some favorable things having happened before. My point was it delays US intervention in Europe, which only helps the Germans to hopefully knock on the Soviets and shore up defenses in the West.