• '21 '20 '18 '17

    We’ve done it in a live game, its a wash.  France would need more to survive to make it matter than just 1 fighter.

    3 Fig/UK
    2 Fig/France
    1 Gib fig
    1 malta fig
    1 TB from 98
    (1 fighter from Leningrad if youre nuttay)

    France bought 6 cannon fodder
    bomber crew

    7 wimps 9 hitters still not worth it but awesome.  Germany lost a significant amount of its land and air force taking it out.


  • If you are playing a person that is so far beneath your level that you can still beat him after the 1-3% outcome of a failed Paris attack, you should have given him a starting bonus!

    Dice do happen and there are times where it is better to just concede.  I had a game where G1 went VERY poorly, followed by more bad luck for the Italians, followed by horrible luck on G2-G4.  My opponent was not happy that I gave up so early, but Germany was already facing doom.  The Allied fleet was hug and Russia did not have to fear any significant attack deep into their territories.  It is hard to win in the Pacific when the US can focus 100% in that theater.  No thanks to another six turns just to prove that I could not win.


  • I am trying to figure out what exactly to do if Paris remains. I don’t know if it is wise to pull the French out of Paris (if any survive) or to try to get the allies to reinforce it as best as possible and try to hold on to it.

    Also USSR fighter can’t legally land on Paris unless Germany declared war.


  • Not capturing Paris is already a ~80 PU swing for the Allies.  The defeat also means that the German forces will not be capable of standing toe-to-toe with the Russian stack outside of Moscow on G5/G6.  Another result of the dicing is that the US can spend nearly 100% of their income in the Pacific for the first ~4 turns without worrying that Germany is getting out of control.

    The Axis must pray that the Allies are truly incompetent and can’t take advantage of this massive advantage.


  • I agree. As I have said many times on these boards, France has a 97% lose and I only failed once to take Paris because I went after Normandy and Vichy on the same turn. However there has to be a plan in place if France manages to hold on.


  • Well I am sure France surviving turn 1 will annoy Axis but I don’t think it’s the end of the game.


  • USSR is so weak in the game that I think it would put Germany on par with USSR so in that case, it might force Germany to accept help from Italy at that point. US obviously will focus entirely against Japan. I think Japan will be able to hold of US if they were smart and went right for the Dutch Islands.

  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    The real question everyone should be asking, isn’t what should Germany/Italy do.  It’s how Japan should respond to this catastrophe.

    J1? J2? J3?  Or what does Japan have in mind?


  • @Gargantua:

    The real question everyone should be asking, isn’t what should Germany/Italy do.  It’s how Japan should respond to this catastrophe.

    J1? J2? J3?  Or what does Japan have in mind?

    DoW on Germany; send Kamikaze Fighters to Berlin and bomb the Fuehrerbunker to dust! 8-)

    And watch the Pride of the German Wehrmacht… :-D

    20180103_101520.png


  • USSR is incredibly weak in G40 for a major power.


  • And America isn’t? It had 7 Carriers and 17  Battleships in late 1941, yet when the game begins it has one of each.
    And Japan starting with 21 Air, is realistic as hell too.


  • @wittmann:

    And America isn’t? It had 7 Carriers and 17  Battleships in late 1941, yet when the game begins it has one of each.
    And Japan starting with 21 Air, is realistic as hell too.

    Yes but US can’t get knocked out of the game with a land invasion that can begin on turn 1.


  • @Caesar:

    @wittmann:

    And America isn’t? It had 7 Carriers and 17  Battleships in late 1941, yet when the game begins it has one of each.
    And Japan starting with 21 Air, is realistic as hell too.

    Yes but US can’t get knocked out of the game with a land invasion that can begin on turn 1.

    A lot of major powers can get knocked out of the game if they’re focussed down.  That’s the basis of many strategies, including Sealion, Calcutta Crush, KGF, KJF, as well as going hard vs Moscow.  So not sure that should be the bellwether :)


  • Loosing to France on G1 is like…


  • US isn’t under any threat what so ever due to their unique position and rules in this game.

  • '17

    In a Paris failed attack, Russia can easily buy as many tanks as it wants for several rounds. You’re not playing Russia right if you think it’s super weak under the circumstances of this discussion post. Russia should be able to get strong enough to camp E. Poland and gobble up numerous NO money for awhile or at least keep Germany from making it to Bryansk for a very long time.

    If Germany sends all ground into Paris and fails, congratulate your opponent on winning the game, re-cock and re-start.

    If Germany tried super aggressive stuff like going for both Normandy and S. France besides Paris, then he definitely deserves to have to switch sides.


  • @ShadowHAwk:

    Even if you do normandy and south france G1 the paris attack is still 90%ish, given that the odds calculator is off with a lot of units it should be even higher then that.
    If you lose a 80+% battle ( not mutual annihilation ) then you just got diced, its not skill but luck that lost you the game.

    If we where to play against each other in many games (switching sides). And you attacked paris with a 20% failure rate, and I attacked with a 1% failure rate. That would mean that you would loose 20 % of your games as the axis on the first turn, while I would lose only 1%.

    If we where equally skilled in every other part of the game and had a completely balanced bid, I would guess that I would win about 58-60%  of the games.
    This means that doing paris with only 80% chance of winning actually is poor skill. You will lose way to many games that way.


  • If you do a battle where you have an 80% chance of winning and 20% chance of losing the entire game, when you have a perfectly good alternative of having a 97-99% chance of winning, that is a bad choice and bad gameplay.  Letting Italy get Southern France on I1 or going after Normandy on G2 are perfectly acceptable options that dramatically lower your chance of a Paris disaster.  If you want to play with the dice to be in a slightly better situation with a win, but potentially game-losing outcomes if you are not lucky, you are not a good player.

    Getting diced is when you make smart moves that have a high probability of success, there are no other alternatives that would be safer yet yield essentially the same outcome, but lose because of bad rolling.  If Germany does a Moscow bombing run with 4 bombers and loses all of them to AA fire, that is getting diced.  It was a good tactic with a horrible outcome that will change the game.  If you lose the entire air force on G1 when going after the UK fleet, that is getting diced.  If you lose in Yunnan on J1, that is getting diced. If you have two Italian tanks plus two Italian mechs fail to kill a single Russian blocker, that is getting diced.  If your big battle in the Pacific that should have a +100 TUV outcome results in a -100 TUV outcome, that is getting diced.

    I agree with Kreuzfeld that overambitious and unnecessary attacks combined with unlucky rolls is NOT getting diced.  There is absolutely no need to have less than 97% chance of winning the Paris battle.  That still leaves 3% chance of loss and I do have great sympathy of people who get diced on that combat.

  • '16 '15 '10

    One way to analyze it in raw numbers is calculate the average tuv differential for your proposed deployments.

    I usually go with a deployment that is 100% (actually 99.5+%) with an average tuv swing of +29.  It has never failed but someday it will.

    It’s risky, but not uncommon to see deployments with only 92% and an average tuv swing of +17.

    By my calculations, a deployment with 80% would have an average tuv swing of +11.

    So leaving aside losing 1/5 games on the 1st turn, is whatever you gain by attacking Normandy and/or Southern France worth 18 ipcs of units on average?

    Of course, this debate seems more ambiguous in Balanced Mod because of the incentive to take Normandy in relation to Vichy.


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