• Which German Navy would you like to go to war with England with?

  • '17 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Some strange choices…

    200 Operational U-boats would wreck UK in 39’

    The 3 BB’s and 8 CA’s probably second.

    600 planes would be a waste, only one carrier nearing production…so these would be land based.

  • 2021 2020 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 Moderator

    I would say Subs too, Worsham.
    Even with the addition of a handful more capital or pocket ships Germany could  never have competed with the UK’s surface fleet, but more Subs would have made a huge difference early on.

  • 2021 2020 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    @ABWorsham:

    Which German Navy would you like to go to war with England with?

    The 200 U-boat answer comes closest to what I’d want, but if I recall correctly Admiral Doenitz had argued that he needed 300 operational boats to bring Britain to its knees.  300 sounds like a lot, but bear in mind that only one-third could ever be on full combat deployment in their operational zones at any one time; another third would be travelling from or towards their bases at the start or end of their patrols, while the remaining third of the boats (and crews) would be in port undergoing refit and repair (and rest and recreation).

  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    What about ACC’s?

    Wouldn’t those have been the difference?

  • 2021 2020 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 Moderator

    Where would you have used them Garg? I can see they could have been used to take out Gib and then get in the Med, take Malta and go for Egypt and the Asian oil. Wouldn’t the UK have countered with all they had, especially if Italy continued to fear using its fleet too far from the safer central Med?
    Not sure how practical Carriers would have been and how easy it would have been to sail them past the UK. They might  have ended up hiding  unused in Norwegian fjords like the Tirpitz.

  • 2021 2020 '19 '18 '17 '16

    Theoretical a mix of all options would have served best.
    –---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I think two medium Aircraft Carriers would have had an imense impact on the Battlefield of the Atlantic and the Med´s. German Aircraft carriers with a old of 25-30 Planes.
    The British focus would have been on the CV´s first to even get through to the Subs.
    CV´s proved to provide a bigger threat rather then Battleships but needed a bigger household and logistic.
    For German use, all they had to do is to patrol up and down from the E-Channel down to Gibraltar.
    Gibraltar taken with a swift blow of the Fallschirmjägers, Airsupport and Naval Support ,as soon as the first German CV is on duty.
    Italien support would have been a must.

    This could be a possibilty only, If Germany decided not to engage in an Airbattle over England.

    If Germany only had like 100 to 150 operational Subs combined with enough Airsupport in coastal area would allready create a greater diffrence to the Atlantic Battlefield I think.
    (in CV´s converted, Thank you)


  • A German Aircraft Carrier could have dealt the British a good many problems had the carrier been able to get into the South Atlantic or Indian Ocean. The Germans could have mined any port of choice.

  • 2021 2020 '19 '18 '17 '16

    No doubt ABWorsham ,the Germans underestimated the Potential of a CV at all.
    The Zeppelin would have been a huge AC considering it would have been finished to be build, but:

    a.) Staff needed to be on the same page on how to use an CV and where.(German Naval Command was split into surface and under the surface commands)
    b.) The Kriegsmarine needed their own Airforce in command.

    (in CV´s converted, thank you)

  • '17 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    AC’s proved to provide a bigger threat rather then Battleships but needed a bigger household and logistic.

    How can Air Conditioners be a threat? England is too cold anyway so no need for Central Air.

    You must mean CV’s…the proper abbreviation for Carrier.

    And this ACC thing is a collegiate sports division. Atlantic Coast Conference ( ACC) is no and i repeat no threat to the British.

  • 2021 2020 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 Moderator

    That was a rude and unnecessary post, Imperious Leader. We all respect each other here on the WW2 thread and do not insult other members.

  • '17 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    I could say what the heck is an A/C? but i know what they are already.

    Plus the poster edited it and thanked me, so not an insult by any means.

    (in CV�s converted, thank you)

    Perhaps you might first read the posts rather than defending nobody who was insulted?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mtfvx8PSW0s

  • 2021 2020 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 Moderator

    I hope it wasn’t meant insultingly, or to embarrass Aequitas et Veritas. He posts here often and obviously has an interest here. I like what he has to say and am sure I am not the only one.

  • 2021 2020 '19 '18 '17

    The Germans wouldn’t have called it CV or AC anyway.

  • 2021 2020 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 Moderator

    I believe you could have sunk it with one torpedo, whatever it was called,  Herr KaLeun.

  • 2021 2020 '19 '18 '17

    Probably not. It took a bit more effort than that to sink the only carrier the Germans launched during the war. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_aircraft_carrier_Graf_Zeppelin.

  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Can someone tell me if this is the correct spelling of ImbeciLe?

    Had a Nazi carrier been loose in the atlantic instead of the Bismarck or both…

    What a great book that would have made.

  • 2021 2020 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 Moderator

    I did not know the  work on the Carrier was that far advanced. I thought it was just a concept.

  • '17 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    The Graf Zeppelin was really a light carrier or CVL. It didn’t have a high plane capacity and would need freedom to operate in open waters from bases in France. I bet it would have been sunk within the week of it’s operation.


  • A German Navy Air Force could have escorted U-Boats, protecting the departing and returning Boats in the North Sea and Bay of Biscay. In 1943 the Bay of Biscay became a turkey shoot for Allied aircraft on U-Boats.

  • '17 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    The Danish Straights would have been worse, or Norway. UK had many bases outside of enemy planes and many access points to the Atlantic, probably why that CV was never launched. Germany on the other hand was always in threat of UK planes, etc. The U-boat campaign was the only solution for Hitler given his positional disadvantages.

  • 2021 2020 '19 '18 '17

    I wouldn’t call the Graf Zeppelin a “light” carrier (let alone CV or CVL, which terminology is used by the US Navy alone). At 33,550 tonnes, the Graf Zeppelin was of comparable size to other WW2 fleet carriers. It did carry fewer planes, though.
    If it had been completed (and I don’t say that doing so would have been a good idea in the first place), I think it would have been best used in Norway alongside Tirpitz. Tirpitz was a headache for the British not because of what it did, but because of what it might do, as they constantly had to take its existence into account when operating in the North Atlantic. The planes on Graf Zeppelin could have provided a similar threat. And of course, those planes would have been very useful to protect the ships when the British came to bomb them.

    About the Bay of Biscay - I don’t think a German carrier would have been any good there. If Germany lacked the capacity to protect its U-boats with land-based planes by 1943, anything else wouldn’t have worked either.

    Apart from all that, more U-boats would definitely have been the best naval build for Germany, imho.


  • My Bay of Biscay comment had to do with German Navy land based aircraft.(although I didn’t make that clear) If the Germans had large number a aircraft to devote to U-Boat protect and hunting for convoys, this could have made huge impact in the war.

  • Customizer

    ABWorsham & Others,

    ––I would say that “all of the above” was part of the original plans for Hitlers’ Navy that didn’t “PLAN” on war breaking out until 1946.

    ----It seems very obvious that 200(or more) submarines would be the most effective of these limited answers. “Operation Drumbeat” against the U.S.A. had to commence with only a ‘handful’ of U-boats to start their ‘Happy Time’.

    ----I very much enjoy these discussions on interesting topics as many differing viewpoints can be viewed, and much learned.

    “Tall Paul”


  • @Tall:

    ABWorsham & Others,

    ––I very much enjoy these discussions on interesting topics as many differing viewpoints can be viewed, and much learned.

    “Tall Paul”

    I agree friend, I enjoy talking to you all.

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