UK/Anzac AAA convert dutch territories?


  • 2019

    @Krieghund Can Anzac AAA gun be used to take ownership of Dutch territories in pacific?

    In the rules and subseqent faqs/addendums it says that conversion of dutch territories by UK/ANAC requires a land unit.

    In a different part of rules it specifies that converting a friendly neutral can’t be done with an AAA but since Dutch is a special case, it seems to be a loophole as it qualifies as a land unit and moving any land unit into the dutch territories allows for transfer of ownership.


  • 2020 2019 2018

    @ksmckay I’d never considered using an anti-aircraft unit to take possession of DEI territories, but I don’t see why the rules wouldn’t allow it: AAA is a land unit and you have to move in during non-combat movement to take possession. It seems to me to be a legal move.


  • 2019 2018 2017 '16

    @ksmckay No you can’t take controll of it with AA-Guns only.

    Here is a Link: https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/20494/mongolia-and-neutrals-rules-summarized-here

    This refers to your question if:

    An AA-Gun is able to take controll of a Teritorry.
    So the answer to this is No!.

    But you could potencially land Ftrs there without taking controll of it and may as well drop off AA-Gun(s).

    It is also not a loopwhole in the game.
    More like a special handling b/c of their ( UK/Anzak) relationship during WWII.

    @ksmckay , @Adam514


  • Official Q&A

    You cannot take control of a Dutch territory with only AAA units.


  • 2019

    @Krieghund said in UK/Anzac AAA convert dutch territories?:

    You cannot take control of a Dutch territory with only AAA units.

    thanks!

    @aequitas-et-veritas that thread addresses friendly neutrals - dutch territories arent friendly neutrals. But doesnt matter as it has been answered now. The rules as printed didnt address this one particular scenario and nothing else on the site addressed it specifically either.

    Intent of the rule seemed clear but it is never spelled out for this particular scenario. Now it is.


  • 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    Last I heard the Dutch were Pro Allies Neutral so they are friendly


  • 2019

    @SS-GEN said in UK/Anzac AAA convert dutch territories?:

    Last I heard the Dutch were Pro Allies Neutral so they are friendly

    That is incorrect - they are not neutral and are not treated as neutrals. For example, US can’t take initial ownership, and unlike neutrals, you can land planes in them on the turn they were converted.

    But Krieghund provides official answers so the question raised has been answered.


  • 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    If you have to convert it to get the money from a dutch Island then its a pro allies neutral until converted.
    But of course this is the G40 game.


  • 2019

    @SS-GEN said in UK/Anzac AAA convert dutch territories?:

    If you have to convert it to get the money from a dutch Island then its a pro allies neutral until converted.
    But of course this is the G40 game.

    Again, that is wrong - the dutch territories on pacific map are not friendly neutrals. But no reason to muddle this thread with unrelated conversation.

    you can see this thread for more information on dutch territory rules
    https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/20494/mongolia-and-neutrals-rules-summarized-here


  • 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    They are until Paris falls then. We differ on this rule. More or less the wording of rule. All good. Happy gaming !


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 '13 Official Q&A TripleA Moderator

    The rulebook has it clear:
    Rulebook, Pacific 1940.2 page 9:

    Dutch territories

    The Dutch territories begin the game uncontrolled by
    any power. However, they are considered friendly to the
    Allied powers. Holland has been captured by Germany, so
    Dutch territories are treated in the same way as any Allied
    territories whose capital is held by an enemy power
    (see
    “Liberating a Territory,” page 20), with the exception of the
    guardianship of United Kingdom and ANZAC
    (see “United
    Kingdom and ANZAC”, above).


  • 2020 2019 2018

    @Panther I still haven’t see any rule which states that UK or ANZAC may not use a AAA unit to assume guardianship of Dutch territories. It’s a land unit, it moves in during noncombat movement…If there’s a specific rule addressing this, I can’t find it.


  • 2019

    @The-Pripet-Martian said in UK/Anzac AAA convert dutch territories?:

    @Panther I still haven’t see any rule which states that UK or ANZAC may not use a AAA unit to assume guardianship of Dutch territories. It’s a land unit, it moves in during noncombat movement…If there’s a specific rule addressing this, I can’t find it.

    Krieghund’s response counts as an official rule. Until his response there was no official rule - at least not on this site or in the rules.


  • 2020 2019 2018

    @ksmckay On what, exactly, is @Krieghund’s statement based? The vast majority of situations that arise can be easily resolved, if not by direct reference to a rule, then through inference based on interpretation of a rule. My interpretation is as follows:

    1. Is AAA a land unit? Yes.
    2. Can it engage in noncombat movement? Yes.
    3. Does the latest edition of the rulebook (Pacific 1940.2) say UK or ANZAC cannot use an AAA unit to assume guardianship of Dutch territories? No.

    The definition of guardianship is “the position of protecting or defending something.” AAA is a purely defensive unit. Krieghund’s ruling seems to me to be a contradiction, rather than a continuation, of the existing rule.


  • 2019

    Rulebook page 26

    Infantry, artillery, mechanized infantry, tanks, and AAA (antiaircraft artillery) can attack and defend only in territories. Only
    infantry, artillery, mechanized infantry, and tanks can capture hostile territories or convert friendly neutrals. All can be carried
    by transports.

    Just makes it consistent with the already existing rules. AAA cant be used to take ownership of a territory. Existing rule considered everything but the issue of guardianship of dutch territories. This ruling just adds to that rule and makes it include everything instead of everything but the dutch territories.


  • 2020 2019 2018

    The rules are crystal clear for hostile territories and friendly neutrals. The Dutch territories are in no way friendly neutrals. Pacific 1940.2, p.9 makes it clear that guardianship is altogether different from “annexing” or “converting” friendly neutrals. I refer again to the definition of guardianship and the fact that AAA is a defensive unit. I disagree with Krieghund’s interpretation.


  • Official Q&A

    Air units are defensive as well, but they don’t count either. As ksmckay said, this is consistent with the related rules.


  • 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    Of all the games and different games I’ve played over the years an AAA gun could never take control of a territory. But Pripet does have a valid point. It is a land unit too. If an Artillery can take control why not a AAA gun ?
    If you use a transport to carry an artillery to a Dutch Island why not a AAA. Besides it’s defending on next turn so the piece should count.
    It’s like if the ground unit can’t attack and defend it can’t control a territory.
    Until then krieghund rule stands unless Larry changes it. To bad.


  • 2019 2017 '16

    Interesting! Sounds like the rules/FAQ needs an update to cover this point.


  • Official Q&A

    @SS-GEN said in UK/Anzac AAA convert dutch territories?:

    Of all the games and different games I’ve played over the years an AAA gun could never take control of a territory. But Pripet does have a valid point. It is a land unit too. If an Artillery can take control why not a AAA gun ?
    If you use a transport to carry an artillery to a Dutch Island why not a AAA. Besides it’s defending on next turn so the piece should count.
    It’s like if the ground unit can’t attack and defend it can’t control a territory.
    Until then krieghund rule stands unless Larry changes it. To bad.

    If you want a rationale as to why AAA aren’t “good enough” to take control of a territory, consider that they have no combat value, which means that if an enemy invades the territory, they will be automatically destroyed without putting up a fight. This kind of defensive support doesn’t inspire much confidence in your allies.


  • Official Q&A

    @simon33 said in UK/Anzac AAA convert dutch territories?:

    Interesting! Sounds like the rules/FAQ needs an update to cover this point.

    “Needs” is a strong word, given that this is a logical interpretation of the existing rules. I agree that it would be good, but FAQ updates are hard to justify these days.


  • 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    @Krieghund said in UK/Anzac AAA convert dutch territories?:

    @SS-GEN said in UK/Anzac AAA convert dutch territories?:

    Of all the games and different games I’ve played over the years an AAA gun could never take control of a territory. But Pripet does have a valid point. It is a land unit too. If an Artillery can take control why not a AAA gun ?
    If you use a transport to carry an artillery to a Dutch Island why not a AAA. Besides it’s defending on next turn so the piece should count.
    It’s like if the ground unit can’t attack and defend it can’t control a territory.
    Until then krieghund rule stands unless Larry changes it. To bad.

    If you want a rationale as to why AAA aren’t “good enough” to take control of a territory, consider that they have no combat value, which means that if an enemy invades the territory, they will be automatically destroyed without putting up a fight. This kind of defensive support doesn’t inspire much confidence in your allies.

    Yes as I mention no attack value can’t take control probably as you say. But then if it’s a non combat move it’s not attacking. So if it’s combat AAA can’t take control but if it’s non combat AAA can take control of a pro allies neutral or an allies friendly territory for any game. Just saying


  • 2020 2019 2018

    @Krieghund said in UK/Anzac AAA convert dutch territories?:

    Air units are defensive as well, but they don’t count either. As ksmckay said, this is consistent with the related rules.

    Respectfully, I don’t think this is a good comparison. The rules clearly state that air units cannot assume guardianship of the Dutch territories. Likewise, the Pacific 1940.2 rules clearly state that the Dutch territories are not treated as friendly neutrals or hostile territories. While I see the logic in your ruling, @Krieghund, I also believe it to be flawed, as it conflates Dutch territories with friendly neutrals. This is, of course, just one man’s opinion…and, as I’ve already been overruled and lost on appeal, I’ll drop the matter here.


  • Official Q&A

    I am not conflating Dutch territories with friendly neutrals. They are indeed different types of territories, with many different rules. However, the procedure for claiming control of both types of territories is exactly the same, even though the conditions under which it may be done are different. I am merely applying similar rules in a consistent manner.

    My saying that air units are also defensive was in counter to your argument that AAA should count because it would “defend” the Dutch territory, and thus provide “guardianship”. My point was that if AAA were to be treated differently in Dutch territories than in claiming friendly neutrals for that reason, it would also stand to reason that air units would also be treated differently, as both could defend the territory. However, they are not.

    As it stands, the procedure for claiming both Dutch territories and friendly neutrals requires moving a “land unit” into the territory in noncombat movement. In the case of friendly neutrals, AAA are explicitly exempted from that function. Since the procedure for claiming both types of territories is the same in every other way, it makes sense that AAA should be exempted for Dutch territories as well, for the same reasons. Not only does this apply the same principle in a similar situation, but it avoids a needless difference in the two procedures that players would need to be aware of.

    I hope this helps you to understand my reasoning.


  • 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    @Krieghund said in UK/Anzac AAA convert dutch territories?:

    As it stands, the procedure for claiming both Dutch territories and friendly neutrals requires moving a “land unit” into the territory in noncombat movement. In the case of friendly neutrals, AAA are explicitly exempted from that function. Since the procedure for claiming both types of territories is the same in every other way, it makes sense that AAA should be exempted for Dutch territories as well, for the same reasons. Not only does this apply the same principle in a similar situation, but it avoids a needless difference in the two procedures that players would need to be aware of.

    Ya its a good point on 2 senerios for AAA gun but.


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