ksmckay

ksmckay

@trulpen I would reconsider. While I find playing with no edit rules too stressful (even if I rarely make mistakes), Andrew was very upfront about his policy and you agreed to it. If you were similarly upfront about the bump policy, then this would clearly be a case of ‘rules are rules.’

But instead you made multiple mentions saying the bumps dont mean anything until with no notice given, you changed your mind and applied a rule that in this community is never applied like this and probably should be amended based on this.

ksmckay

@Colt45554 Its been an issue in the playoffs the last 2 years minimum and it can easily/likely be an issue this year as well.

Saying it doesn’t matter is like saying all the league rules dont matter because everyone will always agree on what should be done. There is a disagreement in the league and the beginning of the year is the time to deal with it.

Its been said that rules can only be changed at the beginning of the year (despite rule changes being made in the middle of the year) so now is the time to deal with it.

ksmckay

I think there shouldnt be any restriction on joining multiple tournaments if you qualify. There is no reason the best player in BM cant be the best player in OOB and PTV. Just need to set number of games to qualify appropriately (which as others have said needs to be different for different games).

This year there were 16 total games of OOB (at least as of 12/1/20). If you make the barrier to get in the different tourneys too high or too restrictive, there wont be a meaningful playoff to worry about.

ksmckay

this nullification business is nonsense.

Andrew said he wanted a game with no edits and up to this point no edits. Andrews policy is if you make mistakes you live with him and right now the only person not willing to uphold that is Andrew. Andrew getting up in arms about a nullification just because he offered one is silly. Andrew was more than welcome to offer whatever he wants but that doesnt require trulpen to do the same.

Andrew wants a black/white rules policy just to get away from things like this and yet he is the one looking for and expecting gray right now.

Trulpen made a bad decision trying to claim the game with bumps but beyond that everything else is now on Andrew. Just move on Trulpen and neither of you waste your time on things that arent fun.

ksmckay

This issue popped up two years ago in the playoffs and was never properly addressed then unfortunately.

Last year there were about 20-25 games out of 375 that were played with OOB rules. Most of those games involved a small handful of players who clearly prefer OOB but were nowhere near the playoffs so it wasnt an issue last year.

This year There were 16 out of 350 or so games played with OOB rules with 11 of them played by one player and a few other random games. Thought this year is complicated because of the addition of P2V which actually represented quite a few games.

Just to put some numbers in. But for the most part I think this conversation was sidetracked.

In 2018 this issue came up in the middle of the playoffs. Thankfully it was avoided in main bracket in 2019 (though it came up in second bracket). Im trying to avoid dealing with this issue in 2020 as I know I wont be the only one who has an issue with this rule and so trying to start the conversation and deal with it before games are started. Its not a question of what the rules say, as that is clear, but the rules clearly (in my opinion of course) dont reflect the current league climate and opinions. I think the rules need to be adjusted for 2021 at minimum.

If the rest of the main bracket is fine with things as is, then all is well, if not then I think its worth discussing and dealing with ahead of time.

ksmckay

@AndrewAAGamer

Finally for me OOB is an official Axis and Allies game. Yes, it requires a bid but it is still the official version. BM3 and PtV are not official and playing them instead of OOB fractures the gaming community. I guess a question could be what is the point of the League and this website. To promote any wargaming or promote Axis and Allies wargaming?

Games evolve over time, in part due to sites like this. What you call OOB doesn’t match the game out of the
Box unless you have second edition so clearly AA games can evolve. Probably Larry and company should have done more to continue to evolve the game but they are a business and continuing to support a game well after being released is probably challenging (though at some other they still support it).

I think most of us play the game for fun. Obviously that means different things for different people.

ksmckay

@gamerman01 said in League General Discussion Thread:

As for default game, I think it has to be the version that’s available to the world outside this site (out of the box version, basically) - we have very few players who refuse to play “balanced mod”, although of course it does happen, and I think it’s the way it should be… Makes more sense to force someone to play the “public” version than to force someone to play a mod, even if 95% of players only play that mod on this forum. It’s not welcoming to potential newcomers if they have to learn a different version of the game than they’ve been playing.

I completely disagree with this. All leagues of all kinds have their own rules. Playing in the league means you play by the league rules. As an example, you could say American football is a game with defined OOB rules. But every league out there has their own version of it. From kids to college to XFL to NFL. Rules arent defined by some accepted OOB format but by what the league decides.

The community that plays on this site is the league and is responsible for making rules that the league wants to play with. There is zero reason that has to be anything other than what the community wants. If someone wants to participate in the league, then they should be willing to adopt the rules of the league whether thats the actual rules of the game, definition of the league, bidding, disagreement handling, etc.

Most of the players in the top tier said they had no interest in playing OOB and would rather pass on the playoffs then be forced into playing it. To me that means there is a problem.

ksmckay

@dawgoneit said in League General Discussion Thread:

gamer has a lot on his plate. i think what he decides should be.

No.

With no disrespect to Gamerman, he doesnt even play in the league.

I greatly appreciate everything Gamerman does (and he does a lot) but he doesnt own the league or define it, the players in the league do and so need to decide the rules of the league.

And all this talk about flipping a coin is silly.

We have two players in the top tier playoffs with a combined total of 1 league BM3 game. One of those players has exclusivley played P2V in this league and the other mostly OOB (one game BM3, one game P2V). Most of the other players have played zero league games of OOB in the last few years. The games are so different that forcing someone to play a different game is effectively an autoloss at the high level.

Most of the participants already stated they have no interest in playing a different version than what they normally play and arent interested in forcing another player to play a different game either.

This has been an issue for several years and particularly now that P2V has been released, it needs to be addressed.

ksmckay

@trulpen said in League General Discussion Thread:

@ksmckay said in League General Discussion Thread:

I am fine with it, but I dont think its ok for the rules to be unclear.

I think they’re actually quite clear and straight-forward. A player can always push for the default rules to be active.

I meant I am fine with adjusting things. The existing rule is not unclear. But if it needs to be changed (or players want it changed), then it should be changed. And I think the beginning of the year is an appropriate time for such a discussion.

ksmckay

@trulpen No moves to make?! I have been waiting ever so patiently, anxious to make my next move!

ksmckay

sorry, I shouldnt have started this tournament. I dont have time or interest in playing A&A anymore and just can’t make time for something that I don’t enjoy right now.
trulpen over ksmckay
https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/38071/l21-sf-trulpen-x-vs-ksmckay-a-21-bm4/128

ksmckay

@trulpen sorry, I shouldnt have started this tournament. I dont have time or interest in playing A&A anymore and just can’t make time for something that I don’t enjoy right now. posted.