Larry has purposely never mentioned specifically how many of anything any unit represents, as the games are not intended to be simulations. The only sure thing is that they all represent more than one.
Posts made by Krieghund
RE: How many troops are represented by an Infantry unit
RE: Calling off landings
@Krieghund As probably the final bunch of things about calling off landings, I assume that, during Non Combat Move, the land units that I called off cannot offload, if I loaded them on the same turn, while they can offload if already on board at the start of the turn (because, in the first case, they already moved, on the same turn, but not in the second case).
I also assume they are not restricted offloading only into the territory where they intended to offload (in this case, this would be possible only if that territory has been conquered), thus can offload into whatever adjacent currently friendly territory.
Finally, I assume they keep the ability to load units, if not offloading any.
What the rulebook says is that:
“During the conduct combat phase, that player may call off the landing but cannot redirect the attack to a different territory.”
“A transport can never offload in two territories during a single turn”
Hence, unless I’m missing something, I should be able still to offload to a different territory, during Non Combat Move, since I never actually offloaded, nor there is a rule inhibiting me to do anything for calling off landing, after the Conduct Combat phase.
So, for example, I have two sea zones,
one occupied by no units and
another one occupied by enemy units and an allied unit with two infantry of mine on board.
I move one transport with two loaded infantry into the empty sea zone, offloading both infantry into an enemy territory.
I move offenceful ships into the enemy zone.
I have one transport with 1 already loaded infantry on board, which I load 1 armour into, then move it into the enemy zone, offloading both the infantry and the armour into the same enemy territory.
I offload all units from the allied transport into the same enemy territory.
I conduct combat in the sea zone, killing all enemies without losing the transport.
At the moment I decide to resolve the battle in the enemy territory, I decide to call off landings, which keeps the transport with the 1 infantry and 1 armour unoffloaded, keeps the allied transport unoffloaded, while still offloading the transport with 2 infantries (my only two possible decisions is either this or offloading everything I can).
Then, during Non Combat Move,
for the transport with the 1 infantry and 1 armour still on board, the armour is stuck on board, while I can offload the infantry into any adjacent territories that are friendly at this point (thus also into the same territory I called off the landing, if it was conquered),
while, for the allied transport, I can offload all units on board into any adjacent territories that are friendly at this point (thus also into the same territory I called off the landing, if it was conquered).
During Non Combat Move, if any of the transports I called off landings from would have had only 1 unit on board, I could have loaded 1 other unit on board of them, as long as not offloading any, from the same transport (this both for my transport and the transport of my ally, all else happening as described above).
Finally, I could have called off the landings from the allied transport also in case the sea battle ended with both sides completely eliminated (thus only the allied transport and its cargo remaining in that sea zone).
If so, I also assume that I can take advantage of this rule to load units onto a transport and send the transport in a naval battle while keeping the units on board. This series of actions is itself illegal (as I’m loading, thus moving, units that are not ending their movement into a combat situation), but, as long as I declare that these units are offloading into a land territory and, then, call off the landing, I’m sure to be able to perform this move practically just like if I would be able always to load units onto transports that are sent into combat, as long as the combat happens in a zone adjacent to an enemy territory I’m not amphibiously attacking.
Yes. This loophole is likely the reason that cancellation of landings was eliminated from LHTR and later games.
RE: Calling off landings
Doesn’t this rule (or ruling?) apply to all games you mentioned? Actually, @Krieghund is the offloading from allied ships inside hostile applying all the same for all A&A strategic games except Zombies? I’m fairly sure it does, but just asking.
RE: Calling off landings
I think it’s fine the way it is. This ruling was arrived at by applying the relevant rules to the situation. These rules have been in place literally for decades, and as far as I know no one has complained about this ruling before now. I can think of only a handful of occasions in which it’s actually come up on the forums.
Honestly, I think that the “infinite loop” situation you’re describing with very rarely, if ever, happen in an actual game. In my opinion, there’s no need to create rules exceptions for such a rare occurrence.
RE: Calling off landings
Well, you cannot decide where you are offloading or if you are offloading after having won the sea battle (also, in this case, you would need not a rule like this for calling off landings), but I have to plot the offload movement during combat move, even though that is not really happening until after I win the sea battle. So, what I meant is that the only way physically to show that on the map is to move the units I want to offload into the land zone where I want them to go, while somehow keeping track of what is cargo of what, still, thus having a situation in which the transports are in the sea zone whence I’m offloading while the offloaded units are in the land zone they intend to move into (I mean on the map). Am I not supposed to do that? So, for example, if I have a sea zone with some transports carrying some units and want to offload some of them into a land territory and some of them into another land territory and keep some of them on board, if the sea zone is occupied by enemy units, I must leave all the cargo beside their transports until after the sea zone is cleared, but somehow (by other means then actually moving the pieces to the target zones) record where every unit is supposed to go?
Yes, you have to declare where each unit is going to go. I guess how you represent that is up to you (and your opponent).
Ok so basically, I have these 2 scenarios:
- No units of mine are going to end the combat move phase inside that same sea zone: I can still plot to offload into an adjacent land zone, but, once I get into the conduct combat phase, I must undo that pointless plotted movement, as the sea zone is not clear and cannot be cleared (still no idea how I’m going to record that, if I cannot move the piece into the land territory until after the sea zone is cleared?).
- Units of mine are going to end the combat move phase inside that same sea zone: I can plot to offload from the allied transport into an adjacent land zone (again, not sure how I’m going to show that plotted movement on the map), but if, during the combat in that sea zone, I retreat or all of my sea units are lost and one or more enemy units survives, the unit or units that were going to be offloaded from the allied transports are, instead, stuck on board just like when retreating, except that the allied transport is not retreating anywhere (actually, now that I think about it, this should be the only case in which I can successfully offload from a sea zone hostile at the start of the turn if the sea battle in it ends in both sides being completely eliminated).
RE: Calling off landings
You mean that I can partially call off the landings or that I must?
Am I able to call off all landings to a same land zone as long as at least 1 transport is offloading from what was a hostile sea zone, or what? What I understand, from the fact that the units have already landed, is that what you mean is “it is possible to call off an assault only partially if units arrived there from two different sea zones and if one involves a sea battle and the other does not”, but just wanted to be sure (meaning that, in this case, either I call off nothing, or I call off all the landings from the embattled sea zones, while still always landing from the non embattled one, no other possibilities).
You are able to call off all landings from sea zones where a sea battle was fought. You are not able to call off any landings from sea zones where a sea battle was not fought.
Also, if, instead, both sea zones involved sea battles, either I call off the landings from both or none, right? In this case, I would not be permitted to land from one but not from the other one, I assume?
If so, then, what I said is hardly mostly correct, I’d say,
It looked mostly correct to me…
so let’s rewrite it, see if now I can be all correct:
In AA Revised OOB, AA Europe and AA Pacific the calling off of landing follows the exact same rules for all these 3 rulesets (this is usually the case for these rulesets).
In any other strategic WW2 AA Games, namely AA Classic I, II, III, AA Revised LHTR, AA Anniversary, AA Spring 1942, AA 1942 II, AA 1941, AA 1940 I, II, as well as any Alpha, there is nothing like this rule, so you must always offload all units from all surviving transports that didn’t retreat.
- The calling off of landing is always decided per land zone (territory), never per sea zone, nor per coast, nor per offloading unit, nor per offloaded unit. Once I decide to call off landings in a land zone, all sea zones where landings can be called off are called off, but only for the transports offloading into that land zone, while all the other ones (the ones friendly since start turn) still offload.
If by “but only for the transports offloading into that land zone” you mean “but only for the transports offloading into that land zone from a sea zone where a battle took place”, then yes.
- When I offload units from a sea zone occupied by not ignorable (which is always the case in the relevant rulesets, as long as I’m in the combat move phase) enemy units, the offloading units remain cargo to the transports they are assigned to, albeit now inside a different zone (so, physically, during combat movement, I have the transports in one zone and their cargo in another zone, thus I have somewhat to keep track (nothing telling me how I am supposed to do that) of what is carried by what, without being able to keep the units next to their transports, then, when adding units to the battle board, I can go back keeping track of what is cargo of what, by regular means, but I, now, need to keep track of what is offloaded into where (nothing telling me how I am supposed to do that)). Otherwise (in practice, only in case of offloading from sea zones completely empty of enemy units since start turn), the offloaded units stop being cargo immediately as they move into the land zone (thus I’m relieved from having to keep track of where is what), as they offload.
I’m not sure what you mean about the transports and their cargo being in different zones, but this is correct otherwise. Cargo from transports not fighting a sea battle is offloaded into the target zone during combat movement, while cargo from transports that are fighting a sea battle is offloaded into the target zone during the combat phase. In both cases, the cargo remains with the transports until it’s offloaded.
Only landings of units offloaded from transports that did so from hostile sea zones can be called off, and no matter if I’m offloading into a completely empty enemy territory or a defended one or even if I’m offloading into a territory I own (which I can do only in case I’m offloading into an empty territory that was blitzed during the same turn).
I cannot (or, rather, don’t have to) call off any landings after I finish any naval battles, as the only moment I can do this is upon starting, or not starting, that land battle.
The game is Axis&Allies Revised (OOB).
I have a land zone A, a land zone B and a land zone C.
The land zone A is being attacked from sea and air only.
The land zone B is being attacked from sea only.
The land zone C is being attacked from land and air only.
I have a sea zone D, a sea zone E and a sea zone F.
A bunch of transports are offloading from D to A.
A bunch of transports are offloading from D to B.
A bunch of transports are offloading from E to A.
A bunch of transports are offloading from F to A.
No other combat movements are being made.
D is occupied by enemy units.
E is occupied by enemy units.
F is not occupied by enemy units.
So, I generate the following set of battles: A, B, C, D, E
I can resolve these battles in any order, provided that I resolve D before resolving A or B and I resolve E before resolving A.
I resolve the battle in D, winning with all transports surviving.
At this point I don’t have nor cannot decide if the transports are actually offloading.
I can now resolve whatever battles but A (I can now resolve B, if I want).
I resolve the battle in E, winning with all transports surviving.
At this point I don’t have nor cannot decide if the transports are actually offloading.
I can now resolve whatever remaining battles.
I resolve the battle in C (which I could have resolved as first, since nothing is offloading into it).
So far, so good…
I resolve the battle in A and, at this point, before starting anything else battle related, I decide to call off the landings into A. That is calling off all and only the landings from sea zones there were hostile at the start of the turn, and no matter if my units are offloading at full strength, just like if there were no battles, as I didn’t lose any transports (thus, substantially, as long as I don’t lose any transports, enemy sea units give me this additional option, of calling off landings, for free, beside any casualties in the sea battle I had to sustain and the inability of using naval bombardment from those zones).
Yes, but you couldn’t have bombarded from the zone anyway, as there was a battle there.
In doing so, my only option is either to call off all landings from hostile or none: I cannot decide to land from D but not from E, nor vice versa, and I must always land from F.
So, calling off the landings, the only thing that can possibly happen is that the units offloaded from D and E stay all on board, while all the units from F offload, then make at least 1 round of battle with the land units from F and the air units, then I can decide to retreat the air units only.
Yes, and the units from F must fight to the death.
I resolve the battle in B and, at this point, before starting anything else battle related, I have to decide if to call off all landings, that, in this case, are all from D (no matter if I already positively decided to call off landings from that sea zone (to A)), and I decide not to.
Then, while all transports offloading from D to A had their landings called off, all transports offloading from D to B actually offload, into the B territory.
Thus I resolve the battle in B, nothing in it being possibly able to retreat.
Is this all correct, now?
Yes, with the caveats noted above.
If so, I still have some questions (with these questions I don’t mean I don’t trust you, I just want to understand why am I blind).
How can you be that sure that
you may only call off an amphibious when it is preceded by a sea battle
About calling off landings, all I see is this section:
In an amphibious assault, land
units offload from transports
and attack an enemy coastal
territory (one that borders a
sea zone) or island group. The
attacker must declare the target
of an amphibious assault during
the combat move phase. During
the conduct combat phase, that
player may call off the landing
but cannot redirect the attack to
a different territory.
My assumption was that, having no reference to any previous sea combat and especially since this rule is part of the general “Amphibious Assaults” section (and even part of the same paragraph as all the rest!), and written even before the “Sea Combat” section, the only logical way to collocate it was as the rule being, well, general, for any Amphibious Assaults (comprising the ones from friendly sea zones).
What I’m understanding is that you derive this from the fact that the rulebook makes clear enough that units landed from friendly sea zones are already offloaded on the combat move phase, thus they are not anymore linked to any other units in any ways, hence there is nothing to call off.
So, is this just a matter of the rulebook being not very clear, or am I missing something that clarifies?
The rule you quoted states that the landing may be called off “during the conduct combat phase”. On page 31, the Rulebook states that, “A transport may offload its cargo during the combat move phase into a hostile territory, beginning an amphibious assault. If enemy sea units are present in the sea zone in which the transport is to offload, a sea combat must be fought first.” So, when offloading from a friendly sea zone, the offloading is done during the combat move phase, and it has already been executed when the decision whether to offload units depending on the results of combat is made. This is one of the reasons why calling off amphibious assaults isn’t allowed in the other games.
Are you sure that this rules doesn’t apply in calling off all landings as long as at least one of them was from a hostile sea zone? What it would make the most sense to me is that if I’m offloading into a land zone A from a sea zone B and a sea zone C, and a naval battle is happening only in B, I should be either calling off both the B and C landing, or none, not only the B one. Are you sure it is against the rule calling off both B and C, and I must always either call off all in B and none in C or none at all?
That makes sense to me, as well, but it’s not what the rules say.
The reason why this would make the most sense to me is that I believe the main application of this rule is in case you took some transports as casualties, thus you think it is not anymore a good idea to land what is left. But, in this case, there is really no difference if I’m offloading 8 infantry from 4 transports in a same sea zone, and I lose 2 transports, in that sea zone, as opposed to offloading 4 infantry from 2 transports in an embattled sea zone and other 4 infantry from 2 transports in another not embattled sea zone, then losing the sea battle. In both cases, I’m down to 4 infantries, from a maximum of 8, thus I may want to call off the landings for the exact same reasons. Are you sure that in the second case that is not possible?
I agree, and I’m sure.
Also, I think it’s very nonsensical that you can call off landings before starting a land battle but you cannot call off air units too, before starting the same battle. In case I have a land battle with all land units in it offloaded from a single sea zone, and I call off the landings, all air units in the battle are being obliged to make 1 combat round alone, which is usually a terrible thing to do, and pretty much it is going virtually to always take out my ability to call off landings, as I don’t want to sacrifice my air units to save some land. I think it would be much more realistic (and much more usable!) if I can call off all air together with calling off the landings, instead of being forced into an air only attack, in a territory I just don’t want to attack anymore, with my “D-Day” force or something. Was this something overlooked, when adding the calling-off landings rule, moving forward from Classic (I’m assuming this rule was added to enhance realism…)? If I have sea borne only with air, it is only logical to assume these air units are starting attacking as my soldiers land on the beaches, thus I should not be obliged to make any air attack if no soldiers are landing on the beaches, nor attacking from anywhere else, as you would think no air units have yet started attacking. If it is missing, I think it is needed a rule that if no land units remain after calling off landings, then I can call off all air units too, otherwise it doesn’t really make sense.
This all goes back to the fact that transports offload during the combat phase if there’s a sea battle. It’s all about timing. By the time you can decide whether or not the call off the landing, you’ve already committed other forces. Chalk it up to miscommunication and the fog of war.
Also, a related matter, if I have units already loaded onto an allied transport that is in a hostile sea zone (which can only happen if the enemy mobilized units there after I loaded, and my turn is in between of the enemy turn and the turn of that ally of mine), does that block me from possibly offloading them anywhere, since I cannot resolve any combat involving that transport, in the hostile sea zone, on my turn?
If you can clear the sea zone with your units, you can offload them. Since any sea battle will not involve your ally, the transport is not at risk and failure to clear the zone will simply result in the cargo’s not being able to offload.
RE: Calling off landings
@Cernel: What you have said regarding AAR, AAE, and AAP is mostly correct. However, as in AAE and AAP, in AAR you may only call off an amphibious when it is preceded by a sea battle. In assaults in which there is no sea battle, the units land during the Combat Move phase. As a result, it is possible to partially call off an assault if units arrived there from two different sea zones and if one involves a sea battle and the other does not, but only in that case.
Neither AAR LHTR nor any of the games from AA50 onward allow calling off landings. The only way to not land the units is to retreat from the sea battle.