Here’s the Armies vs Navies idea I came up with!
G40 Balance Mod - Feedback Thread
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Adam. BM is good, I am not contesting that. But honestly you can’t claim that Russia has a decent number of objectives they can fight. The other allies can fight for Russia such as the lend lease, but Russia does not control this. Maybe you can argue that the no allied units is something they control, but it is not something they fight over. Realistically most games will pass by without claiming any axis areas in Europe. Berlin no has no practical meaning. So which NOs do they fight over? I know none.
In addition to lend-lease route territories, Russia fights over their spread of Communism NO (Finland rush, or Eastern Europe with a Sealion), and they fight over 3 (4) territories to prevent Germany from achieving their NOs, which are Volgograd, Novgorod and Caucasus. They are also largely responsible for safeguarding the Middle-East, so that’s a few extra NOs they fight over, albeit indirectly. In my opinion, and imo logically, fighting to prevent an enemy from gaining income is the same as fighting to gain income for yourself. Volgograd and Novgorod for example are German NOs for balance. They would be fought over just as much if they were Russian NOs, but Germany is the one who needs the money from those NOs in this map.
If you have a proposition for a Russian NO I’m all ears, but atm I think they fight over a lot of things already.
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Amur is a contestable objective sort of - Japan has to compromise to contest it. If the Persian and Northern routes are open, they have to allow 4IPC of objective to stop 2IPC and also activate Mongolia. This is part of what I dislike about the 2IPC bonus per route for USSR if Japan DOWs on USSR.
What you dislike about the 2PU-per-route bonus is precisely the reason it was added–it creates a logical in-game disincentive for an ahistorical outcome (i.e., Japan declaring war on Russia). Of course, it doesn’t force the historical outcome, but it creates an in-game justification for it.
I also tend to think that BM has enough NOs, and am reluctant to add more.
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Yeah, nearly every island in the game has an NO (or 2!!) attached to it :-P
Too many NO’s in Z99 :-( -
Yah, if i could redraw the G40 map from scratch, I would put islands on SZ Boundaries (like in Balance of Power), so that each island would adjoin multiple szs, making them strategically valuable without the need for an NO.
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Yah, if i could redraw the G40 map from scratch, I would put islands on SZ Boundaries (like in Balance of Power), so that each island would adjoin multiple szs, making them strategically valuable without the need for an NO.
That’s the future :wink:.
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They were already strategically valuable and most do not need NO’s
Especially the ones with airbases already on themThe Med island NO’s are overkill
Every one of them is already strategically valuable -
They were already strategically valuable and most do not need NO’s
Especially the ones with airbases already on themThe Med island NO’s are overkill
Every one of them is already strategically valuableWhat? No they weren’t, you always had either Greece or Syria as better spots for air. I might have seen a handful of times Cyprus taken without regard to denying the UK NO in vanilla.
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Amur is a contestable objective sort of - Japan has to compromise to contest it. If the Persian and Northern routes are open, they have to allow 4IPC of objective to stop 2IPC and also activate Mongolia. This is part of what I dislike about the 2IPC bonus per route for USSR if Japan DOWs on USSR.
What you dislike about the 2PU-per-route bonus is precisely the reason it was added–it creates a logical in-game disincentive for an ahistorical outcome (i.e., Japan declaring war on Russia). Of course, it doesn’t force the historical outcome, but it creates an in-game justification for it.
I also tend to think that BM has enough NOs, and am reluctant to add more.
Why is the historical outcome the correct outcome? Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?
I still can’t see the logic of varying the bonus based on who DOW’s.
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Amur is a contestable objective sort of - Japan has to compromise to contest it. If the Persian and Northern routes are open, they have to allow 4IPC of objective to stop 2IPC and also activate Mongolia. This is part of what I dislike about the 2IPC bonus per route for USSR if Japan DOWs on USSR.
What you dislike about the 2PU-per-route bonus is precisely the reason it was added–it creates a logical in-game disincentive for an ahistorical outcome (i.e., Japan declaring war on Russia). Of course, it doesn’t force the historical outcome, but it creates an in-game justification for it.
I also tend to think that BM has enough NOs, and am reluctant to add more.
Why is the historical outcome the correct outcome? Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?
I still can’t see the logic of varying the bonus based on who DOW’s.
No, I don’t mean that the historical outcomes are the “correct” ones. What i mean is that the game conditions should be such that there is a logical reason for events to unfold in the historical way (even if there are plenty of opportunities and reasons from the game to divert from history). In vanilla G40, what reason is there for Russia to follow the historical path of delaying the DOW against Japan until the end of the war? None. The DOW almost always happens in the first round, cuz “why not?” The historical choice is not motivated at all.
The logic of varying the Lend-Lease NO based on who DOWs: If Russia could double its Lend Lease aid simply by declaring war on Japan, Russia would always declare war on Japan at the earliest opportunity. I think an argument could be made that the urgency of Lend Lease would be greater if Russia were dragged into a two-front war by Japanese aggression, than if Russia elected to open a second front on its own initiative
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aight ya’ll. they are three NOs currently under consideration by the MOD squad. I’m submitting them here for your review and comment:
1. Trade With Germany: Russia gets 2 PUs when not at war with Russia;
2. Home Islands: Japan gets 2 PUs when at war with USA if it controls okinawa and iwojima
3. Atlantic Wall: Germany gets 2 PUs if: (1) Normandy and Holland were controlled by Axis from the start of its turn; and (2) there is at least one land unit in each of Normandy and Holland at the end of its turn. -
*the “home islands” one is 3 PUs
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aight ya’ll. they are three NOs currently under consideration by the MOD squad. I’m submitting them here for your review and comment:
1. Trade With Germany: Russia gets 2 PUs when not at war with Russia;
2. Home Islands: Japan gets 2 PUs when at war with USA if it controls okinawa and iwojima
3. Atlantic Wall: Germany gets 2 PUs if: (1) Normandy and Holland were controlled by Axis from the start of its turn; and (2) there is at least one land unit in each of Normandy and Holland at the end of its turn.I like them all. IMO the more $ the better as long as it is balanced. Why not 3 for #1. one inf per turn?
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I quite like the first two but I don’t like the third one.
I was expecting there would be trimming of the Allied NOs rather than adding more!
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Why don’t you like the third NO?
As for adding the “Trade with Germany” NO, the idea, according to its proponents, is to give Germany a reason to consider an early DOW against Russia–the concern being that, in Balance Mod 2, a G3 or G4 DOW against Russia is always the optimal approach. What do you think?
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The logic of varying the Lend-Lease NO based on who DOWs: If Russia could double its Lend Lease aid simply by declaring war on Japan, Russia would always declare war on Japan at the earliest opportunity. I think an argument could be made that the urgency of Lend Lease would be greater if Russia were dragged into a two-front war by Japanese aggression, than if Russia elected to open a second front on its own initiative
For the record, I don’t really agree with this logic. Yes, if Japan was at war with USSR they would be attempting to interdict supplies but then there would also be war material able to be shipped. Why don’t we just call it a wash and remove the incentive? As you point out, it would create perverse incentives to DOW for USSR if it was there regardless of DOW.
Here’s a suggestion: Nullify the Mongolian rule if USSR declares on Japan.
Why don’t you like the third NO?
I guess because it creates an incentive to put some useless troops on the Atlantic - but then I guess that is the reason it is created and it causes no harm.
Hmm, I think I’m coming around on this one.
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They were already strategically valuable and most do not need NO’s
Especially the ones with airbases already on themThe Med island NO’s are overkill
Every one of them is already strategically valuableWhat? No they weren’t, you always had either Greece or Syria as better spots for air. I might have seen a handful of times Cyprus taken without regard to denying the UK NO in vanilla.
Well I’ll add one to your handful. Me1945 put one on Cyprus against me on his way to a win
I was referring especially to Sardinia and Sicily, which are very strategic.
I understand being defensive of your own project, but I have valid criticism. The Med island NO’s are overkill. Z99 is extreme, especially when the German +2 got added to CRETE
You know, frankly I’m amazed that a guy with a record like yours is arguing that the Med islands are not strategic. Syria and Greece? No, those are on land so could be threatened by ground forces. Plus there are issues as to whether USA or UK owns a territory as to who could build an airbase. For example, UK controls Greece and Cyprus and Syria is inaccessible. USA could take Crete, and thus be able to build an airbase or naval base there. Even Eire has strategic potential. I can’t believe I have to explain this to the #1 ranked guy in the league……Greenland is an island that has almost zero strategic value. New Hebrides, Samoa, Line, and Fiji have next to no strategic value. But the Mediterranean islands!?! Holy cow, those are very strategic and important. And with Balance Mod, there are way too many NO’s associated with them. The Med now has so much money associated with it, Axis Dominion went with this huge fleet strategy with the Axis against me, bought TWO German carriers for the Med early, and bought 3 German fighters on G1. I still cracked the Med by round 10 and started raking Allied money, but man, that’s just more evidence to me that there are too many NO’s in the Med. The Med was a hot spot without any of these new NO’s
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1. Trade With Germany: Russia gets 2 PUs when not at war with Russia;
Adding needless complication. You could just reduce the Wheat NO for Germany down to 3.
2. Home Islands: Japan gets 2 PUs when at war with USA if it controls okinawa and iwojima
Oh, yes, some islands that didn’t have NO’s, need them! Not! Japan doesn’t need more money. Plus, these islands are already a 2 IPC per turn swing apiece, and Iwo especially is a strategic spot for the USA especially if Russia is not at war
When’s GREENLAND gonna get an NO? Not fair! :-P3. Atlantic Wall: Germany gets 2 PUs if: (1) Normandy and Holland were controlled by Axis from the start of its turn; and (2) there is at least one land unit in each of Normandy and Holland at the end of its turn.
Yeah this one’s neat - consider eliminating the one that includes Crete. Also consider creating a 5 IPC NO instead that is “Fortress Europe” for controlling all territories in European mainland (not Norway, Finland?) at the end of Germany’s turn. Adding an NO that involves units at the beginning of a turn just adds one more complication to the game that makes it that much harder for a newcomer to learn…… so I guess as I write out my thoughts I’m not such a big fan of it. Would I enjoy it being added to my games? Sure. But with the Mongolian rules and Vichy, this game is getting more and more complicated.
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They were already strategically valuable and most do not need NO’s
Especially the ones with airbases already on themThe Med island NO’s are overkill
Every one of them is already strategically valuableWhat? No they weren’t, you always had either Greece or Syria as better spots for air. I might have seen a handful of times Cyprus taken without regard to denying the UK NO in vanilla.
Well I’ll add one to your handful. Me1945 put one on Cyprus against me on his way to a win
I was referring especially to Sardinia and Sicily, which are very strategic.
I understand being defensive of your own project, but I have valid criticism. The Med island NO’s are overkill. Z99 is extreme, especially when the German +2 got added to CRETE
Kind of silly to us who are objectiveRussia has taken Sardinia/Sicily more times than US/UK has…
Did you have a bad day?
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No, I had a good day, but I am incredulous at your view point.
I NEVER saw Russia take Sardinia or Sicily in 2nd edition. You must play very differently and different opponents than I do -
And I am insulted that you disagreed with my statement that Med islands are strategic, because that’s basically saying I don’t know what I’m talking about. And yes my incredulity at you could be taken as equally insulting.
Wow, Med islands aren’t worth taking by the Allies, just wow
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