Ahhh, fair enough. Sorry did not see…
-e
For non-scramblers, how does your game play out?
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Losing the italian fighters early cripples italy very badly for the rest of the game; especially it’s opening rounds where it needs to expand.
You need those fighters everywhere I1 through I3 to secure NO’s and ensure that your forces are winning battles handidly, and not getting ground down.
Italy really needs to watch itself, it’s one thing to lose some units defending, but you have to be careful that you don’t burn up all your units on your own turn as well. Italy needs a certain critical mass of units on the board to do anything significant.
As for simon’s comment on the Italian planes not helping you on Moscow. Whilst that’s true, I’ve won many a game using the italian fighters to punch that critical hole through the russian lines; and/or keep the russian defense honest. Worth their weight in gold.
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So we have kinda established that if the axis scramble sz97, that it really hampers what Italy can do on the first couple turns. Another thing is that if the Italians lose those couple ftrs It1 that they really can’t pressure Egypt (if that is the plan). Often times the Italians will move up to Alex on It1, and the Germans will land planes on Alex G2. Germany more or less loans Italy planes after they dismiss the UK navy in sz97 to protect the Italian ground force on Alex. This isn’t worth doing if the Italians are down a couple ftrs because they won’t have the strike force to hit Egypt now. I realize that Italy may or may not be able to take Egypt, but taking that risk off the table allows UK some breathing room non the less.
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So, I didn’t scramble today, UK’s fleet stays put and convoys, leaving Italy with 3 ipcs for turn 2. So I don’t see where saving 1 Italian plane (and 2 German) is a great bargain.
Or…
I scramble, get 3-4 more hits. Then Italy can clear the French ships and get a shot at UK’s one Malta cruiser on Italy 1, giving me a chance at the 5 ipc bonus (no surface ships in Med), and a total of a 14 ipc swing. Plus, it leaves Germany’s planes for Russia or UK… though I usually bring a pair down to help in the med, along with a carrier and transport (maybe a destroyer or 2nd transport, depending on Italy’s fleet after I1).
I think the difference is I don’t get a chance at Greece until I2, I guess? (instead of fighters, the 2nd Italian tank and/or inf from Bulgaria help).
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you could arrange to land more luftwaffe in S.Italy on G1 non combat move
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In a recent game, 2 tanks failed to kill 1 inf in rostov. Sure, in an outcome like that, the two starting fighters might have helped. Not sure how common that is though.
I agree with the point that scrambling means you can’t pressure Egypt but Egypt usually doesn’t fall early unless some transports survive. I would think scrambling a bad idea if I saw an ic build uk1.
I’m not sure of the other value from the starting Italian fighters garg is referring to though.
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I also preserve my ITA Ftr’s by not scrambling and send them out and luring for opportunities to kill off some units.
One might be a placed russian CR in sz 114. Voilia Leningrad is open!As an Aggressor, the opportunities to make an impact should be on your side on your turn.
If you scramble, you will likely loose this because it is not the choice for you to make.
You simply placed it in your opponents what he will do with your Fighters.
If he continues the battle you have no saying in that.BUT: as Italy you have to stay operational and luring for chances to direct the path Euro Axis should go and not hand it over.
That is my Philosophy about it.
Scrambling makes sense when you can clearly change the outcome of a battle and still be operational or prevent a disaster.
The UK Fleet can be taken out by two different ways.
They are allready explained.
Either by German Luftwaffe or by Italy via amphib on Greece. -
To weddingsinger’s point, this is why staging the Germany planes on Rome and even bombers (or planes of any kind or team) on Western Germany is strong, because the UK has to be ready to fend off every enemy plane before it can squat on Italy’s money (or stack up pretty much anywhere but SZ 109)
But you can’t have that air power over there and still attack Moscow, the geometry of the map wont permit that. So as you move to make the killing blow against one ally, the other steps up.
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@aequitas:
Scrambling makes sense when you can clearly change the outcome of a battle and still be operational or prevent a disaster.
The UK Fleet can be taken out by two different ways.
They are allready explained.
Either by German Luftwaffe or by Italy via amphib on Greece.So you hit the UK fleet with Italy’s, and leave the French?
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If Germany doesn’t have anything to do with it’s planes on g2 I prefer the less risky kill it with Germany planes on a counter attack or Italy kills it if no fighters left on it.
Italy usually has other battles it can do like sink French or whatever.
If Germany is low on air for some reason… A scramble can be better depending on how underwhelming the raid is.
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Agreed, with the caveat that if this is your option you need to also be prepared to hit Greece in case the UK also activated it to provide a landing place for it’s planes.
Marsh
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@Cow:
If Germany doesn’t have anything to do with it’s planes on g2 I prefer the less risky kill it with Germany planes on a counter attack or Italy kills it if no fighters left on it.
Italy usually has other battles it can do like sink French or whatever.
If Germany is low on air for some reason… A scramble can be better depending on how underwhelming the raid is.
But COW, is it worth it when Italy will then get convoyed and only earn like 3 ipc?
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As opposed to an extra 30 ipc loss from scrambling? Yes. Even if you assume that Germany will lose 21 IPCs on the counter, then you’re breaking even NOT counting the massive UK naval losses.
Marsh
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@Marshmallow:
As opposed to an extra 30 ipc loss from scrambling? Yes. Even if you assume that Germany will lose 21 IPCs on the counter, then you’re breaking even NOT counting the massive UK naval losses.
Marsh
I mentioned this up thread, but… isn’t the math:
Scramble:
Math shows those 3 planes get 3-4 more hits than not scrambling. (UK usually having 4 out of 8 units left)
Italy loses 10 ipc (fighter); 2 ipc lost opportunity (not taking Greece until I2); Germany loses 21 ipcDon’t Scramble:
Italy gets 1, maybe 2 hits, UK has 7 out of 8 units left.
Italy loses 3-9 ipc (convoying); 5 ipc missed opportunity (lost N.O.); Germany still loses 1-2 planes in counter attack… -
The issue i think is that you’re assuming Italy can get the NO. It can’t, unless the UK lets it by withdrawing from the Med.
Standard UK1 in the Med is sea zone 97 and sea zone 96. Assuming that UK has a ship left in sea zone 96, Italy does not have enough force without relying on lucky rolls (always a losing move!) to clear sea zones 93, 96, and 97 with 95%+ battles.
Even if the UK does not have a ship in sea zone 96, Italy still does not have enough to clear sea zone 93 and sea zone 97 with 95%+ battles. If you scramble to sea zone 97 on UK1, you can’t even do those two sea zones with a reasonable chance of winning.
In short, you’re counting an NO that Italy cannot realistically obtain as part of your math. Unless you get very lucky, you will not win one of the three battles you need to win for that NO. Even if you do, your losses will be devastating.
Marsh
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@aequitas:
Scrambling makes sense when you can clearly change the outcome of a battle and still be operational or prevent a disaster.
The UK Fleet can be taken out by two different ways.
They are allready explained.
Either by German Luftwaffe or by Italy via amphib on Greece.So you hit the UK fleet with Italy’s, and leave the French?
If you are playing a Balanced Mod game and activating Vichy, those ships turn Neutral anyway. That has some effect on the decision here.
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@aequitas:
Scrambling makes sense when you can clearly change the outcome of a battle and still be operational or prevent a disaster.
The UK Fleet can be taken out by two different ways.
They are allready explained.
Either by German Luftwaffe or by Italy via amphib on Greece.So you hit the UK fleet with Italy’s, and leave the French?
If you are playing a Balanced Mod game and activating Vichy, those ships turn Neutral anyway. That has some effect on the decision here.
YEA IF YOU ARE PLAYING BALANCE MOD THAT WOULD DEFIANTLY CHANGE THE GIST OF SCRAMBLING TO SZ97.
Anyway, if scrambling to sz97 seems to be working for you, then you should continue to do it wedsing. A couple things done G1 could help too. Like if the Germans gets lucky and knocks out the sz91 cruiser then you don’t have to worry about clearing sz96 on Italy’s turn. If Germany takes S France on G1, then the French ships in sz93 can’t run too far (2 spaces), so they are either still in the Med or in sz91 (easy targets for Germany G2). If you do scramble then you shouldn’t get convoyed, and have a better chance of taking Greece and keeping your fleet together under the scramble umbrella of Rome.
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I get that many of you do play balanced mode, but aren’t these forums for Axis and Allies Global 1940? Balanced Mode is NOT Axis and Allies Global 1940.
Marsh
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I still like scrambling with 2 Italian fighters and 1 German fighter. Perhaps I won’t if the UK chances are 91% or better WITH a 3 fighter scramble. When it’s less than 91%, often the UK wins the fight with a few planes left that land on Malta and nothing in SZ97 or just 1 ship. I get to that no surface warfare ships in the med much quicker and actually get to collect it for a few turns. The TUV change seems to work out overall more in the Axis’ advantage and Italy wasn’t convoyed. Either scrambling or not is about 3 Axis plans lost. I just got a whole lot more bang for my buck with that 2 hit point battleship. Not scrambling really sucks especially when Italy rolls zero hits in SZ97. Then at least 3 IF NOT 4 German planes could get shot down if you want to clear the med. Now, it’s even harder to get to that Battle Calc level where the UK is FORCED to help Russia rather than do whatever it wants to.
I don’t know how Italy really can get to other objectives with those 2 fighters when not scrambling against competent UK players. I’m just not that good to see it.
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@Marshmallow:
I get that many of you do play balanced mode, but aren’t these forums for Axis and Allies Global 1940? Balanced Mode is NOT Axis and Allies Global 1940.
Marsh
I think that’s a bit like saying that a bid is a house rule and therefore not G40.
I suppose you could value the chance of getting the no ships NO from scrambling at about 1IPC (20%). Probably about right.
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The bid addresses a perceived imbalance in the game. Balanced mode, on the other hand, introduces units and rules that are not in Global 1940, Europe 1940, or Pacific 1940, so it’s quite reasonable to draw a line between actual Global with a bid and balanced mode to put balanced mode into the realm of “house rules”. But hey, I can agree to disagree with you :-)
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