Maximizing Cruiser Value?

[The Pripet Martian]

Many players seem to have a problem with the cruiser, with most considering it overpriced. I know there’s been quite a bit of tinkering with that unit over in the House Rules section, from lowering the cost to adding anti-aircraft ability, and so on. Is it possible, though, that we’re simply not maximizing the value of cruisers within the OOB rules?

As I see it, the cruiser is overpriced if purchased and used in combat alone. When paired with a destroyer, however, it’s value increases considerably. Consider this:

Cruiser + Destroyer = Cost: 20 Attack/Defense Value: 5 Hits to kill: 2
Battleship = Cost: 20 Attack/Defense Value: 4 Hits to kill: 2

I know the BB still has an advantage, in that one hit doesn’t change the A/D value and it can be repaired. On the other hand, the CA+DD combo has a slightly greater chance of scoring one hit (and can potentially score two hits) per combat round.

With all the above in mind, if you’re buying units in anticipation of naval combat (as opposed to naval combat + amphibious assault), wouldn’t the CA+DD combo offer slightly better value than one BB?

[General 6 Stars]

Ya if you take first hit on BB.
BB A4 .66 hit 1 dam A4 .66 hit = 1.3 hits
CR A6 1 hit
DD A4 .66 hit both = 1.6 hits
For 2 rounds of combat
I’ll just say this once if interested in changing it the right way some what to get CR better than a Destroyer for cost to punch.
OOB now
BB C20 AD8 = 1.26
CR C12 AD3 = .50
DD C8 AD2 = .75
CR is to weak.
New costs. Simple change. That’s it
BB C18 AD8 = 1.56
CR C9 AD3 = .89
DD C8 AD2 = .75
1 BB C18 AD8 = 1.56
2 CR C18 AD3 = 1.78
2 DD C16 AD2 = 1.50
2 CR should get to kill a BB
Usually it’s 3 Destroyers to kill a BB but with D6 dice best your gonna get.
This is good for cost for punch.
Just saying. IMO.

[taamvan]

The problem with the unit is that it has less benefit than the DD, at a higher price. You lose the crucial effect against subs and as a cheap blocker, and trade that for a unit that is helpless against subs, has to be chosen before DD in casualty, and gets a nice bombard.

I have laid out an entire US strategy paper for the US Kruiser Krush. It has all the moves and buys laid out for 6 turns. However, I have not presented it to the group as it is extremely suboptimal, its very easy to avoid its effects, and crucially, it reduces the total number of hits in the 91 fleet so that the 91 fleet is way more vulnerable with 5 cruisers than it would be with 8 destroyers–you have fewer hits total, and fewer destroyers to lose, so you have to lose higher cost units sooner.

Still, its fun, so with some more tinkering, I may present it. I’d be happy to email it to anyone for comment.

[weddingsinger]

Balanced mod helps with its ability to carry a marine, but even then I only use the original 1 or 2 cruisers I start with.

Bombard is nice, like mentioned, but I usually already have 1-2 cruisers/battleships so no big deal for more since its maxed by number of transports.

@taamvan

So, to reinforce your 5 cruisers or 8 destroyers example… both get you approximately 2.5 hits per round BUT the destroyers soak more hits, drag out combat for more rounds, and larger numbers of rolls reduce variance - you’re more likely to whiff on 5 rolls than eight. As proof… Triple A’s battle calculator shows 5 cruisers vs 8 destroyers gives the win to the destroyers 85% of the time.

I think the only time I’ve purchased a cruiser in a game was as ANZAC playing balanced mod since I wanted the troop carrier and risk to Japanese planes on the counter attack when they had no ships to attack with or retake the islands.

[The Pripet Martian]

Either I’m not understanding these responses, or I didn’t clearly articulate my original question (or both, which is most likely). Let me try again:

Sticking strictly to OOB 2nd Ed. Global rules (no changes to unit cost or capabilities), does the purchase of one destroyer and one cruiser (assuming you plan to move and fight them as a pair, in effect making them a single unit) offer better value than one battleship?

[General 6 Stars]

@The-Pripet-Martian said in Maximizing Cruiser Value?:

Either I’m not understanding these responses, or I didn’t clearly articulate my original question (or both, which is most likely). Let me try again:

Sticking strictly to OOB 2nd Ed. Global rules (no changes to unit cost or capabilities), does the purchase of one destroyer and one cruiser (assuming you plan to move and fight them as a pair, in effect making them a single unit) offer better value than one battleship

Yes for first round, but whether you want to look at cost or not it does matter when u pick a casualty

1st round
BB C20 AD@4 .63
Vs
CR C12 AD@3 .50
DD C8 AD@2. .75
C20 AD@4 .63 vs C20 AD@5 1.25

2nd round assuming BB got a hit
BB AD@4 .63
Vs
CR AD@3 .50
.63 vs .50
Or
BB AD@4 .63
DD AD@2. 75
.63 vs .75

[taamvan]

@The-Pripet-Martian No.

The reasons? Same # of hits, but 1 hit can be recovered (soak hit)
Special rules mean that once the DD is lost the CA drops in value whereas the BB doesnt, often arguing for a situation where you keep the DD and lose the CA (sub strike)

Tac Bombers, Marines, Cruisers, and even BB are suboptimal units. In some versions, arty is–because it can’t be taken onto a ship. A BB is a fine buy but you only need 1 per fleet. Other units fill the specialized roles better (fighters, bombers, dd) and you have a few of the other units already mixed in to start that means you can just focus on buying the most specialized unit for your needs.

As for BM, you cannot Combat and Noncombat. Being able to carry an extra unit just adds a bunch of fraught choices (land a marine vs bombard = usually land a marine, so the bombard advantage of CA is lost). Also, the infantry is stuck on a ship that fights, and bb and cruisers would rarely decline a fight ( you need their attack power).

[General 6 Stars]

Mentioned that BB takes hit then there weaker in first post. The answer is yes and no.

[weddingsinger]

@The-Pripet-Martian

Weirdly the Triple A battle calculator says a destroyer/cruiser vs a battleship combat is 40/60 in favor of the defender, regardless of which way you flip it.

Which is more useful depends on what you want it for, I suppose.

The battleship’s ability to get healed is very useful when you’re the potential defender near your naval bases (Japan garrisoning Philippines, for example)

But there is another option… skipping the cruiser(s) and staying with multiple cheaper destroyers as part of a larger fleet. Lots of destroyers, original fleet cruisers/battleships, and carriers give you a lot of hit soakers. Toss in a couple of subs to chase down stray transports and its a good mix.

If we scale up your example of 20 ipcs to 80 ipcs… 10 destroyers vs either 4 battleships or 4 destroyers and 4 cruisers, the destroyers win 60-70% of the time.

[taamvan]

@weddingsinger Indeed sir in single combat fewer dice will lose. This is why Taranto/SZ 110 is so powerful (fewer hits than dice= 6 hits but 5 dice w/scramble)

DD carry the day because they are the max roll vs mass hit points (+abilities for free) only carriers are better (until the fighters fly away).

Still the game is pro because there is an optimal combination “Grand Fleet” 1BB 1 CA (not bought) + carrier and dd (bought) + fighters (not bought)

[oysteilo]

@The-Pripet-Martian said in Maximizing Cruiser Value?:

Either I’m not understanding these responses, or I didn’t clearly articulate my original question (or both, which is most likely). Let me try again:

Sticking strictly to OOB 2nd Ed. Global rules (no changes to unit cost or capabilities), does the purchase of one destroyer and one cruiser (assuming you plan to move and fight them as a pair, in effect making them a single unit) offer better value than one battleship?

Yes, a destroyer and a cruiser is better than a single battleship. The destroyer and the cruiser will win 42% of the time, the battleship wins in 39% of the time and no one survives in 19% of the time, according to the axisandallies.org calculator

[General 6 Stars]

:scream:

[The Pripet Martian]

@weddingsinger said in Maximizing Cruiser Value?:

Which is more useful depends on what you want it for, I suppose.

The battleship’s ability to get healed is very useful when you’re the potential defender near your naval bases (Japan garrisoning Philippines, for example)

If you only have 20 IPC to spend on your navy, I think DD+CA vs. BB is a very close call. As you said, the battleship’s no-cost repair (versus a minimum of 8 IPC to replace a DD) is a significant advantage. However, DD+CA offers a slightly greater chance of scoring one hit in the first round of combat and a .17 chance of two hits, not to mention an anti-sub capability the BB lacks.

For me, I think it comes down to this: If the enemy has subs, go with CA+DD. If no subs, distance from a friendly port vs. distance from my nearest IC will guide my decision.

[General 6 Stars]

Ha the BB should cost at 3 icps to repair do to the fact it doesn’t weaken it with 1 dam.
Killing me. I’m out.