1939 Scenario for the 1942.2 Map and Pieces


  • Hi Argothair.
    The Axis can’t win in 43. I set it up, because I quite like playing a losing battle. As Germany, you have to shift forces East to West, and vice versa, to stem the breakthroughs, as the Allies come at you, mercilessly, from both sides.
    I accept I am not normal.

    Will try my best to put up the other nations,'later today.


  • Japan 45.
    Japan: 4 Inf, Art, AA, FT and Bomber.
    Korea: 1 Inf.
    Manchuria: 2 Inf, FT.
    Jehol: 2 Inf.
    Shantung: 1 Inf.
    Kiangsi: 3 Inf, Art, FT, Tac.
    Kwantung: 1 Inf.
    Indo: 2 Inf, 1 Art, FT.
    Siam, Shan and Malaya: all 1 Inf.
    Burma: 2 Inf.
    Sumatra, Java, New Britain: 2 Inf.
    Borneo, DNG and Celebes: 1 Inf.
    Philippines, Carolines: 2 Inf.
    Paulau, Gilberts, Marshalls, Wake, Guam, Okinawa and Iwo: 1 Inf.
    sz6: DD, TT, BT, AC, FT and Tac.
    19: DD, TT.
    35: BT, AC, TT, FT and Tac.
    45: DD.
    47: CR, DD and Sub.


  • US 74.
    East: 2 Inf, Art, Mech, AA, FT and BB.
    Central: 1 Inf.
    West: 4’Inf, Art, AA,  2 FT and BB.
    Brazil, Morocco and Algeria: controlled.
    Tunisia (UK): Inf, Mech and Tank.
    Alaska: 1 Inf.
    Midway: 1 Inf.
    Hawaii: 2 Inf and FT.
    Solomons. 3 Inf,  1 Art, FT.
    UN: FT and BB.
    SZ 10: BT, CV, CR, 2 DD, Sub , FT and Tac.
    SZ26: CV, DD, 2 Subs, 2 FT.
    SZ 40: BT, CV, CR, DD, 2 TT, FT and Tac.
    SZ101: BT, CR, DD and TT.
    SZ 94: CR, DD 2 TT.


  • China 14.
    Chahar, Kweichow, Kwangsi, Kiangsi: all 1 Inf.
    Yunnan, Anhwe:  both 2 Inf.
    Szechwan: 2 Inf and a FT.

    Germany: 54 income.
    Normandy: 1 Inf, 1 Tank.
    Belgium: 1 Inf, 1 Tank.
    S France: 1 Inf.
    France: Inf, Art, Tank, AA.
    Denmark and Southern G: 1 Inf.
    Germany: 2 Inf, Art, 2AA, 2 Fts and BB.
    Poland: 2 Mech.
    Hungary, Bulgaria, Greece, Yugo and Bessarabia: 1 Inf.
    N italy: Mech and Tank.
    S Italy: Tank.
    Romania: 2 Inf, Tank and FT.
    E Poland: 2 Inf, FT and Tac.
    Baltic: 1 Inf and 1 Tank.
    Belarus: 3 Inf, Art, Tank and AA.
    W Ukraine: 3 Inf, Art, Tank , AA and FT.
    Ukraine: 4 Inf, Art, Tank , AA and FT.
    Karelia, Vyborg: 1 Inf.
    Finland: 2 Inf.
    Norway: 2 Inf and FT.
    SZ103 105, 107: Sub.
    SZ113: CR, TT and Sub.
    Crete: comtrolled.


  • Is it a bit like G40? Where on neutrals they have a number of what units they defend with and you can pick which power to represent who’s.


  • Was that question for me, Frederick?
    If so, yes. All is as 1940, but the turn order follows the 1942 Tournament set up that  Larry endorsed.
    I realise I have omitted ICs and Bases. I was happy with the standard set up ones. Please fill I the gaps.
    This copying up is taking forever. I do apologise.


  • Oh I’m sorry wittmann, that question was for Argothair, my question was talking about the french and dutch pieces for the setup. Because I was wondering what units represent french and dutch so then I figured if it was like G40 where in the 1939 case if Germany attacks France then the french setup would activate then british units would then represent the french or if it was not like G40 and the starting setup is already there. Wouldn’t you get pieces mixed up because I only own 1941 and 1942.2 so I don’t have different types of units to represent the french and dutch. I know it sounds confusing.

    Maybe if you own an Italian set you could have Italy, and give Germany some extra ipcs to start with.

    Also wittmann, is that G40 setup your posting and is that 1943?


  • I did wonder, Frederick.
    It is a 1943 set up, after the failed Kursk offensive and the loss of North Africa.
    I think I just posted UK in another thread: what an idiot!


  • 1943 is not very popular as I think it is maybe Larry should make a version of it.

    I did see your mistake. :wink:


  • : 34.
    2 Inf, Art, TK, AA, 2Ft amd BB.
    Scotland: Inf, FT and Tac.
    Tunisia: Inf, Art, Mech, Tk and FT.
    Egypt: 1 Inf (with an Anzac Inf).
    Pacific: 5 IPCs.
    West India: 1 Inf.
    India: 4 Inf, Art, 2AA, FT and Tac.
    SZ43: Sub.
    sZ41: Sub.
    SZ39: Cruiser, CV and FT.
    SZ94: BT, CR, DD and TT.
    SZ91: DD
    SZ98: DD.
    SZ119: BT, CR and DD.


  • Italy: 8.
    South: 2 Inf, AA and Ft
    North: inf, Art, Tank, AA, FT.
    Sicily: 1 Inf.
    Yugo (German controlled)1 Inf.
    Albania: 1 Inf.
    SZ95: Cruiser.
    SZ96: BT and Sub.

    Ansac: 10.
    NSW: 2 Inf and AA.
    Queensland: 2 Inf, Art and FT.
    Western: 1 Inf.
    NZ: 1 Inf and FT.  
    New Guinea: 1 Inf, with an American one.
    Egypt: 1 Inf.
    SZ37: Sub.
    SZ62: CR, DD and TT.

    France 0 (5).
    Algeria (US) and Morocco(US) 1 Inf each.
    Syria (French) 1 Inf.
    FWAfrica: (French) 1 Inf.
    UK: 2 Inf and FT.
    SZ72: DD.
    SZ83: CR.

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    @Argothair:

    Young Grasshopper, thanks for the kind words, and good luck with your renovations!

    When you have time, I’m curious to hear what kinds of game-play and strategies you are looking to get out of your 1943 scenario. Where do you see the game going, and what interests you about it? I’ve seen 1944 “fall of the Reich” scenarios where the Axis players ‘win’ if they stave off defeat longer than their historical counterparts, but I’ve never seen a 1943 scenario. If the game setup starts in spring 1943, after the surrender of Tunisia, after the German defeat at Kursk, and after the defeat of the Japanese navy at Midway, then how can the Axis hope to win? If the Axis are not supposed to win, will people really enjoy roleplaying that many turns of the Axis being pushed back to Berlin and Tokyo? What is it that you want the 1943 scenario to offer to players? (Evidently wittmann thinks he’s figured that out – you’ve got at least one loyal fan of your idea!)

    Hey Argo,

    You said spring 1943, is it possible to have a 1943 date and it be before Tunisia, Midway, and Kursk? My idea is simply for originality in the title as 1939, 1940, 1941, and 1942 have all been used in the titles of various varients.


  • Hey wittmann, good job so far and it looks like Libya and Tobruk are empty are they up for grabs?

  • 2023 '22 '21 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16

    You have some flexibility, Young Grasshopper, but not much. Let’s say you try a January 1, 1943 start date.

    At that point, the Americans had already gained naval dominance in the Pacific at the Battle of Midway back in the summer of 1942, and the Americans were massively outproducing the Japanese all through the summer and fall of 1942, so the Imperial Japanese Navy is going to be outnumbered roughly 2:1 vs. the US Pacific Fleet if you want any kind of historical realism. What the Japanese still had going for them was control of a middle and inner layer of defensive islands – you could give Japan some infantry and some land-based fighters on Iwo Jima, the Mariana Islands, Palau, and New Guinea, and you could leave the American transports back in Hawaii or even San Francisco, to show the difficulty in transporting troops over the entire Pacific Ocean.

    In Africa, the Allies have seized Morocco, Algeria, and Libya. You can leave Tunisia in German hands, but it wasn’t held very strongly – it’s not really a useful beachhead; the Germans couldn’t afford to reinforce it, much less counterattack, without dangerously draining forces needed to occupy France or occupy the Balkans. Even if you leave the Germans in Tunisia, with American, British, and French forces all converging on Tunis, it’s only a matter of time until Germany gets pushed out of Africa.

    On the eastern front, the Germans were crushed at the battle of Stalingrad, but they still held Rostov and the Caucuses in force, which makes for an interesting opportunity for the Germans to push forward. In real life, the Germans sensibly retreated from the Caucuses, but they could have doubled down with their last remaining reserves on the eastern front to try for Round 2 in Stalingrad, or to try to break into Persia and Iraq. The German front line at the time would have been something like Baltics - Belarus - Bryansk - Rostov - Caucuses. It’s a good front line, but the Russians are mustering a very large counterattack that will almost certainly break that line. The Germans could plausibly take Leningrad, Stalingrad, and maybe even Persia, but even if all of those battles went well, they would not have any realistic opportunities for breaking through to Moscow for at least another 4-6 turns, by which point the Allies are almost certainly sitting in Paris and Rome and threatening Warsaw.

    The Japanese could plausibly have crushed the Chinese resistance in 1943 if they had poured additional tanks into the region instead of reinforcing their barrier island chains; it’s unclear if that would have had any serious effect on the defense of Moscow. As accurately reflected on the 1940 Pacific map, Moscow is 7 turns away from the Japanese industrial complexes on the eastern coast of china – even if China were totally undefended, it’s hard for Japan to move significant forces all the way through China and into Russia.

    So, long story short, I think you could make an interesting game out of a January 1, 1943 starting setup, but you would need different victory conditions to give the Axis a chance at winning – maybe an economic victory condition, like the Axis win if they control 100 IPCs (I have no idea of the proper number), or something like that. The Axis could have made some major economic gains against the allies if they had a good year in 19432, but they just aren’t in a position to realistically assault more than a couple of victory cities in January 1, 1943, let alone in a position to conquer any Allied capitals.


  • Good assessment of the general war situation that existed in 1943, Argothair.  For an A&A game to be set in 1943, it would have to take one of two approaches: either realistically model the situation that existed in 1943 (meaning that the Axis would be in a worse starting position than in 1941 or 1942), or it would have to be some kind of alternate-history scenario (which could achieve game balance at the price of historical accuracy).

    That being said, 1943 does fall within the middle phase of WWII, so the date might still allow for a decent slugging match.  The period from 1939 to about mid-1942 was the period when the Axis was in the driver’s seat.  During 1944 and 1945, the Allies were clearly in the driver’s seat.  The period between those two time brackets was the “deep war” phase during which, from the Allied point of view, the Axis advance had been checked and partially rolled back but victory was by no means yet certain.  In Europe, Germany still had some strategic options open to it (as Kursk in 1943 and the Battle of the Bulge in 1944 were to show), but those options were much more limited than in 1942.  In the Pacific, Japan was in a somewhat worse position (it made no land conquests after its failed attempt at Guadalcanal), but it did have the resources for two major rolls of the dice at sea: the Battle of the Philippine Sea in June 1944 and the Battle of Leyte Gulf in October of the same year.

    Assuming one were trying to model historical reality accurately for a 1943 scenario, it would help to start as early in 1943 as possible because the problems for the Axis got worse and worse as the year progressed.  Just off the top of my head, I’d say that if I had to design a 1943 scenario, I’d pick February (specifically February 10) as my starting date: 8 days after the fall of Stalingrad and 1 day after Guadalcanal was declared secured by the Americans.  Those were two pivotal moments, so I’d choose mid-February 1943 in much the same way as Larry chose to start his Europe 1940 scenario right after the evacuation of Dunkirk.  I’m not sure what I’d do in terms of victory conditions or force allocations, but conceptually the date seems like a workable candidate.

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    Those are both great posts, thanks guys… I don’t have time tonight to respond in detail and I don’t want to hijack Argo’s thread, all I can say is the term 1943 “Deep War” would make an awesome game title.


  • Are we talking about the 1939 scenario in 1942.2 or are talking about 1943?


  • @Frederick:

    Hey wittmann, good job so far and it looks like Libya and Tobruk are empty are they up for grabs?

    They are UK controlled, sorry for the omission. (Remember I was working from a AAA map.)
    The Axis have no TTs and Italy’s fleet should not be able to defeat te joint Allied one. That was the plan, anyway!
    It probably makes for a boring game for the Axis, unless, like me, you are a weird masochist.


  • @Young:

    Those are both great posts, thanks guys… I don’t have time tonight to respond in detail and I don’t want to hijack Argo’s thread, all I can say is the term 1943 “Deep War” would make an awesome game title.

    Good idea YG – I’ll go have a look at that new thread.

    Incidentally, the phrase “deep war” that I mentioned is a quote from Ilya Ehrenburg’s book The War, 1941-1945: “We speak of deep night, deep autumn; when I think back to the year 1943 I feel like saying: ‘deep war’.”  Richard Overy quoted it at the beginning of one of the chapters in his book Why The Allies Won – the chapter titled “Deep War: Stalingrad and Kursk.”

  • 2023 '22 '21 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16

    Does anyone have comments on the 1939 scenario?

    I’m glad this thread helped gather some ideas for a 1943 scenario, which is being discussed at http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=36048.0. I have been contributing to the 1943 thread and I will continue to do so. However, I am also very interested in comments on the 1939 scenario if anyone has them!

    Thanks,
    Argo

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