Renegade Con Virtual: Axis and Allies

[thrasher1]

Pick Your Battle:

Probably will be released in 2024.

Four topics/options:

(1) Operation Market Garden

(2) North Africa

(3) Eastern Front

(4) Battle of Stalingrad

[thrasher1]

The winner will be announced March 2!

[thrasher1]

You can vote here:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSez4ngBvj6sKcOQOdy8VTzf7lyCcvlxqGc7N8IpI1Zb0nQePg/viewform

[DoManMacgee]

@thrasher1 Revived, Classic and the original Europe and Pacific weren’t even listed as options for the “favorite game” section. Does Hasbro not have the rights to them or something?

EDIT: Spring 42 also wasn’t listed, although I can’t really blame them on that front as I can’t imagine there’s a soul out there who’d list that as their favorite (although 41 is listed so…)

EDIT #2: Did the Lord’s work and plugged this site wherever I could on the poll. If enough people follow suit we might be able to get some of these guys to lend us an ear for future releases, events, etc.

[vodot]

@domanmacgee said in Renegade Con Virtual: Axis and Allies:

@thrasher1 Revived, Classic and the original Europe and Pacific weren’t even listed as options for the “favorite game” section. Does Hasbro not have the rights to them or something?

EDIT: Spring 42 also wasn’t listed, although I can’t really blame them on that front as I can’t imagine there’s a soul out there who’d list that as their favorite (although 41 is listed so…)

EDIT #2: Did the Lord’s work and plugged this site wherever I could on the poll. If enough people follow suit we might be able to get some of these guys to lend us an ear for future releases, events, etc.

ditto on “the Lord’s work”; /agree on 1942; and also sad for the omission of Revised, my second favorite edition after anniversary.

[DoManMacgee]

@vodot Funny coincidence. Revised is my #1 and AA50 is my #2 (so I just voted for AA50 in the poll). The real crime is no Classic representation though as that seems to be the 2nd most popular version other than G40.

[barnee]

@domanmacgee The Captain contacted them by email. You could let them know Revised should be on there. it is quite popular.

https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/39351/have-you-guys-seen-this-big-anouncement-for-a-a/16

[Imperious Leader]

@barnee Revised is broken. 5 ipc tanks, buy all tanks. Game over, do not pass go insert 2 coins per play, JTDTM, etc…Black oceans. enough. 1942 is the standard bearer but a reprint should contain much larger map and new sculpts.

[PizzaPete]

@imperious-leader

I’ll admit that I haven’t played Revised in quite a while, but I think a buy of all tanks would be pretty easy to counter considering that for 15 ipcs you could get 2 inf, 1 art, and a tank that will beat three tanks on both offense and defense.

[vodot]

This post got moved over from a different thread.

@imperious-leader I’m not sure to what extent the team will feel empowered - or have the appetite - to revise things like rules etc. for the flagship games. They seem, at least right now, content to simply own and reprint the flagship IP while releasing only new entries into the (quite dated) family of “standalone satellite games”. This is after all the age of the timid ‘remake’, for better or for worse.

I would personally hope that we will see an even more revolutionary version of what @Black_Elk has recommended:

@black_elk said in Advice to Renegade! What is on your top 10 for adjustments to G40 3rd edition?:

So the Q was for Global 3rd Ed, but while we’re at it… I just got 3 to add

1. A legacy version of the base game (midscale board), that is simply called “Axis and Allies” ie don’t include a start date year or an edition number in the name for that one. It should present as the basic starter set. Provide unit set ups for a couple dates like AA50 did, but do that in the manual instead. The idea being that it’s easier to re-print or revise or download material for unit set ups in a manual than on cards/boxes. So you could do 1942 as the default, but also 1941 or 1943 say, just by referencing a page in the rulebook.

2. Axis and Allies Global - Sell it as a single complete game, rather than 2 separate theater games. For packaging maybe have 1 box be for the maps the cards and all the paper stuff, and then have units sold separately? I think the players that are most interested in the more advanced game just want G40, rather than Europe and Pacific 1940. By selling the sculpts separately there is less need to divide the boards by theater, and then it can build on the starter unit set included with the base “Axis and Allies” game mentioned above.

3. Include a small Art book/History of the Axis and Allies game and it’s creator, including the images from all the cover boxes and such. Legacy style! I just think that would be a nice touch and cool to see.

I would take this idea even further - a complete restructuring of the product line into a modern “base game + expansions” system with a basic tier (“Axis and Allies”) and then more complex and theater games layered on top of that. How many olive drab colored US bits does one A&A player need?? I have thousands of plastic bits across dozens of different color variations and decades of different injection molders, and tooling changes both major and minor… and I am by no means a “major collector” by the standards of some of the regulars here.

Instead, in 2024 maybe we could begin a new three-tier system, something like:

• “Axis and Allies” (essentially, this would be AA41 or, even better, AAZ without zombies)
  • basic units (inf/art/tnk/ftr/bmr/sub/trn/dd/cv/bb)
  • simplified board with drawn-on infrastructure
• Expansion 1: “Advanced” Axis and Allies
  • this expansion would, when combined with “Axis and Allies” above, create AA50 or AA50+. Contents:
    • bigger/more granular map; maybe add a minor power or two (Axis minors/Italy, etc.)
    • Set of new ‘basic’ units for the added power(s) only
    • New unit rules + sculpts: Cruisers, AAA units, ICs, etc. for all powers
    • This would not come with the basic pieces for the other powers
• Expansion 2: Axis and Allies: “Global War”
  • this expansion would, when combined with the Base game and Expansion 1 above, create G40 or G40+. Contents:
    • even bigger/more granular map and add more minor powers
    • Sets of ‘basic’ and ‘advanced’ units for the added minor powers only
    • New unit rules and sculpts: Mech Inf, Tac bombers, Minor ICs, Bases, etc. for all powers

These three would be the “mainline” series, which would then be further extensible by at least three additional series:

1. A “Great Battles” product line that zooms in on battles of particular interest like Guadalcanal or the Bulge; or perhaps even whole theaters and regions like North Africa, the Eastern Front, or Operation Overlord and aftermath.
   - These would use but not contain the “Basic” units, rather expanding upon them by adding only the missing needed bits for those battles, scenarios, or theaters. The trucks from Bulge or the Blockhouses from D-Day are examples of these; and these theater games could include rules for incorporating these additional units into the “Global” game as well.

2. A product line that adds rules, units, and complexity for the “Global” game. These would be “packs” of additional sculpts and units, with each including enough units to add a particular unit for every power or new rules for the Global game; adding things like Transport Planes, Heavy Tanks, Mobile Artillery, Oil/resource bits and rules, new maps and overlays, etc. This could even introduce goofy/fun shenanigans like a “Zombies” deck with zombie figures, or other bizarre and alternative scenarios.

3. A product line for aesthetic game/sculpt changes - blister-packs releases of special/interesting replacement sculpts for the given powers.

[SuperbattleshipYamato]

@vodot

Very good ideas. Larry technically did that back in the day, but I understand what you mean. For your ideas though how would you combine the different tiers? Do you combine the maps? If so, how?

I hope we’ll get Battle of the Bulge and Guandacanal reprints, those are long overdue.

[vodot]

@superbattleshipyamato said in New Renegade Edition:

@vodot

…Larry technically did that back in the day, but I understand what you mean.

What are you referring to?

@superbattleshipyamato said in New Renegade Edition:

@vodot

…For your ideas though how would you combine the different tiers? Do you combine the maps? If so, how?

The maps would not be combined, but the other components would necessarily be.

For example, say you wanted to play a G40-alaogous game with the new system.

You would first need “A&A”, the base game, for the basic units and major powers.

You would then need A&A “Advanced”, which would include all the units for Italy (for eample), but for the major powers would include only the new “Advanced” units unique to the “advanced” ruleset (cruisers, AAA units, etc.) - because you’ve already got the basic units from the major powers from the base game.

Finally, you would layer on A&A “Global”, which would include the new bases and all the units for the French and ANZAC powers (for example), but for Italy and the major powers would only include the additional “expert” level pieces unique to the “Global” ruleset (mechs, tacs, etc.) - because you already have the basic and advanced units for those powers from the first two games.

[Imperious Leader]

@pizzapete Not on Movement. Projection of military prowess, where units can quickly come back for defense or charge and attack Moscow and the “JTDTM”. For Japan its really important to quickly reduce her IPC to the nub so the final assault comes quickly before USA/UK get organized logistical train. Revised is kinds messed up like original AAE.

[DoManMacgee]

@imperious-leader Revised is fine lol. Bid at moderate/high level is 4 to Axis for an extra ART in Libya (in online play with on time limit), even.

Tank spam as Japan is good on paper but a good Allies player will have things in the Atlantic relatively under control by time Japan is anywhere near Moscow. Transports in Revised participate in combat, which means Germany can’t reliably kill UK’s BB fleet G1, which in turn lets you just build 1 CV then ramp up to 4 Transports and start landing across any of West Europe/East Europe/Karelia to severely kneecap Germany’s troop train. No starting Karelia Factory for Soviets to worry about + no starting India factory for UK to worry about means you can get a pretty seamless setup going by around B3 and even have the spare funds to dump a FTR or two into Moscow if you need it for dice odds. Japan can still threaten a win by hitting Moscow on ~turn 6 but by that point Allies should be just about to take Berlin to set up a US/UK Vs. Japan finale, assuming the game doesn’t just devolve into an INF stack stalemate instead.

EDIT: That being said I don’t want Renegade to touch Revised other than just forcing Beamdog to roll it into the AAO Client (which will probably never happen). If they want to make a “42” sized game they should just make a 42 3rd Edition instead of messing with an older version.

[Imperious Leader]

@domanmacgee Oh with Beamdog, i tried to tell them that a huge map print on Neoprene using the 1942 online map file would be a good seller, the new look then would have a whole new group of buyers who never played the actual boardgame and are used to the online presence instead. a 1942.3 must have neutrals with IPC and dynamic armies ( special pieces is cream color for them) and tech rules that don’t include crap non technology like “War bonds” and the optional rule in 1942.2 regarding escorts and interceptors made standard.

[reloader-1]

@vodot I would simplify your “line” a bit, particularly when it comes to sculpts.

1. “Axis & Allies” - basic sculpts for the 5 major powers

2. “Axis & Allies Advanced/Deluxe etc” (whatever marketing comes up with - basic sculpts for ANZAC/Italy/France/China etc AND advanced sculpts for everyone.

That’s it. Otherwise, someone who wants to play Global is forced to buy three products in your list, instead of two, just to get Italy. Of course, there is still room for the Great Battles line, or separate packs of sculpts etc, but this way it’s a bit more streamlined. You get the basic experience, or the full experience - besides, owning sculpts for games you don’t yet have is an incredible incentive to buy that game!

[vodot]

@reloader-1 said in Renegade Con Virtual: Axis and Allies:

…owning sculpts for games you don’t yet have is an incredible incentive to buy that game!

But by definition then you’re paying more money than you needed to play the game you wanted to play. My goal with the above is to make the game in all it’s flavors as inexpensive and non-redundant as possible at each desired level of complexity.

“Axis and Allies” should be slightly cheaper than AA:Z today - no zombie bits or deck.

“Advanced” should be far cheaper than Anniversary today - all you would be buying is a new board, new rules, and a handful of advanced units for each power, plus the full set of Italian/Axis Minors units.

“Global War” would be the most expensive of the three but would still be far cheaper than the $200 MSRP it is today - all you would be buying is the new board, new rules, and a handful of “Expert” units for each power, plus the full set(s) of Allied Minors units.

I’ll try to actually work out the math for each tier using today’s bloated games as a basline.

[reloader-1]

@vodot

I think we are on the same page, but I still believe that you are overlooking a huge chunk of the cost (and complexity). Let me explain:

The majority of the “cost” of the modern Axis & Allies games (or any board game, for that matter) is transportation cost of the size and weight of the box, with the actual components (paper/plastic/cardboard) as the secondary driver. These games are made and boxed in China, then packed in containers for oceanic shipping. Those are priced by the cubic foot, of course. Once they arrive stateside, they are loaded into trucks or trains (price per pallet), taken to distribution centers, and from there shipped in smaller mixed loads to stores, or mailed via a common carrier (all based on size/weight.

I think it is critical to divorce the boards, which make up a huge chunk of “cost” when taking this into account, from the game. We already have Axis & Allies 1941 as an example, assuming that Hasbro/Renegade is making some profit then about $25 is a fair expectation for 200 pieces + board/rules/box.

Your pricing, for a G40 player, would be as follows:

1. Axis & Allies Base - $30 (a bit more expensive than 41 as it would have a few more pieces - injection molded plastic isn’t wildly expensive however).

2. Axis & Allies Advanced - $30 (I can’t drop the price any cheaper than 1941, as the components are quite similar - map + some pieces, but the board is bigger)

3. Axis & Allies Global - around $60 (the pieces are minimal, but the combined weight of the boards drives much of this price)

Here is the problem - your hypothetical G40 player HAS to spend $30 extra for Italy + some minor pieces, and ends up with a map that they don’t really need or use. Here’s my solution:

1. Axis & Allies Base - $30 (as above)

2. Axis & Allies Advanced - $25 (pieces ONLY - nothing else. Small box, about half the size of the 1941 box, with about 600 - 700 pieces). Smaller size = less cost.

3. Axis & Allies Games - as most of these are map and rules only, they can actually be a bit thinner than the current boxes , but still sufficient to stand on a shelf. Each one of these assumes you own #1, and some will have to explicitly state if you need to own #2. Of course, if any new pieces are introduced they will be included here.

This also neatly avoids the issues of a game that requires Italy + other advanced pieces requiring a customer to purchase 4 games, under your system. For example, Axis & Allies North Africa. A buyer in your system would need the base game, plus advanced for Italy, plus G40 for all of the mechanized infantry, French pieces etc, PLUS the actual North Africa game. That sounds like game DLC hell.

Meanwhile, my system would just required base + advanced plus the actual game. No need to have an AA50 board and a G40 board taking up space in your house because you don’t need it!

[vodot]

@reloader-1 said in Renegade Con Virtual: Axis and Allies:

2. Axis & Allies Advanced - $25 (pieces ONLY - nothing else. Small box, about half the size of the 1941 box, with about 600 - 700 pieces). Smaller size = less cost.

Well, I think that 600 pieces retailing on a shelf in the US for $25 is a bit off, even looking at aliexpress’s bottom-barrel quality as a comparison. Also in your version an “Advanced-only” player would have to pay for pieces he does not currently want, which I was trying to avoid.

But yes, whether it’s pieces packaged as separate from the boards and rules or whether they are generally bundled I think a base game + layered expansions/modules system is the way to go.

Looking at the “waaaaay more complicated” end of the WW2 gaming spectrum, I think that ASL and ASLSK are at least somewhat good analogues for this, for anyone that knows that system. Enticing new players into a complicated system - whether that system is “insanely, ludicrously complicated” (ASL), “very, very complicated” (ASLSK) or even just “mildly complicated” (A&A) - is inherently difficult, and so the barriers should be re-examined from time to time to ensure they are as low as possible. I think the current state of the A&A family leaves a lot to be desired in that regard, even with the entry-level offerings like AA41 out there.

[reloader-1]

@vodot I’m definitely in agreement, and your point about the “base” being a standalone game is the most important part - people should be able to buy one box and have it include everything needed to play the game, albeit a basic version (your A&A Zombies example, minus Zombies is dead on. One of the best A&A maps!).

I think it’s important to avoid the “you need pack 3 and 4 to play this, and pack 2 and 6 to play that etc”, which many games do horribly. Of course, the easiest solution that no one would buy is EVERYTHING in one box, but that’s a massive barrier to entry for new players.

Although having all of the pieces in one “Advanced” booster/expansion pack means some players might end up with pieces they don’t need, I think it’s a better solution than more SKUs with pieces. I do think I lowballed the price, it’s probably more around $35.

$20 says that Renegade doesn’t do any of this, sadly 🙁