@ABWorsham4 probably still scared the starving civilians , carrying rifles and 2 bullets each, half to death at the time though .
Wittmann stops the 7th Armour dead at Villers Bocage
-
Wittmann got on to the RN 175 road at Les Haut Vents which is at 185 mtrs, some 28 mtrs below the peak of Pt 213 1200 mtrs (Yellow X)to the right.
He turned left into Villers Bocage and it is probable he first fired at and hit the Firefly tank ‘Blondie’ shown below. Wittmanns own account given just after the action mentions only that he fired at 2 tanks to his left before he turned right into Villers where he was knocked out.
Note the crest of Pt 213 in the distance and the complete absence of any other tank wrecks on the road. Blondie is the only one. . A Squadron were on the other side of the hill.
The 6 wrecked tanks (2 Recce Stuarts and 4 RHQ Cromwells) are at the entrance to the town of Villers Bocage
Villers bocage is in a depression some 100 mtrs below Pt 213.
A Squadron were over the crest and on the other side of Pt 213.The Wiki article on Villers Bocage is the most accurate account on the web.
-
Simple geography. The position of every tank wreck is known as is the route Wittmann took into the town.
Wittmann could not possibly knock out any more than the 9 tanks on that road that came into his direct sight.
Between Wittmann and A Squadron there was a large hill (pt 213) so they never came into contact.Thats right, HILLS! The tanks greatest obstacle, because it’s not like a tank could, ya’know, drive over it or something. One must wonder how the Tank gained such prominence on the battle field with this huge weakness :roll:
Come on Gar, have you forgotten the ROT (Rule of Thumb) when dealing with Lazarus posts? Remember, whatever he says, the opposite is what really happened.
-
@aequitas:
On June 13th of 1944, Wittmann�s company destroyed entire 4th County of London Yeomanry Regiment travelling on the road No.175 to Villers-Bocage, at the Hill No.213.
HE WHO IS ABLE TO READ GOTS THE UPPER HAND!!
It says: Wittmann’s Company…
hätte es vielleicht doch in deutsch schreiben sollen!
should have written it in german!And regarding sources dear Lazarus, Achtung Panzer is a German source, wiki is not a source it´s more a plattform where everybody could fill in the blanks what he might fits into. I ´ll see if i can get any SIGNAL source or of former members of the CLY or the 22nd Regiment…but allways read with caution, in the end it is all self interpretation.
-
@aequitas:
@aequitas:
On June 13th of 1944, Wittmann�s company destroyed entire 4th County of London Yeomanry Regiment travelling on the road No.175 to Villers-Bocage, at the Hill No.213.
HE WHO IS ABLE TO READ GOTS THE UPPER HAND!!
It says: Wittmann’s Company…
hätte es vielleicht doch in deutsch schreiben sollen!
should have written it in german!Write it in Greek if you prefer but it wont change the fact it is wrong.
Neither Wittmann, his entire company, 1st kp, or Pz Lehr came even close to destroying 4th CLY.@aequitas:
And regarding sources dear Lazarus, Achtung Panzer is a German source, wiki is not a source it´s more a plattform where everybody could fill in the blanks what he might fits into. I ´ll see if i can get any SIGNAL source or of former members of the CLY or the 22nd Regiment…but allways read with caution, in the end it is all self interpretation.
Atchung Panzer is full of errors. You would have to be really desperate to rely on it as any kind of source.
I have checked the Wiki page on Villers and it is by far the most accurate account on the net.
Signal magazine had an article on Villers Bocage but some of the photos it used were not taken at Villers Bocage and one photo was faked to make the destruction look worse than it was.
You can find the War Diary and Regimental Magazine for 4th CLY online but they were in 22nd Armoured Brigade not 22nd Regiment. -
Dear Lazarus, my apologies for mixing Brigade with Regiment up, my bad.
I leave it to this ,that I let have you, your opinion and that I got my view of the events based on what we know and learned from the past.
I also learned ,even when we think we are right ,that one time we all gonna see that we haven´t been right at all and in anything, it all was about to just make the right choices.That said I agree with you to disagree and leave it totally up to you what ever you are going to do with it.
I put allready out the fact what Wittmanns intension was and don’t wanna fight about numbers and hills.
sincerley AeV… -
@aequitas:
I leave it to this ,that I let have you, your opinion and that I got my view of the events based on what we know and learned from the past.
Opinion has no impact on the facts.
It is really simple.
Wittmann drove on to the RN 175 road from Villers Bocage to Caen.
He had 2 choices.
A)Turn right to Pt 213.
B)Turn left and go into Villers Bocage
He chose ‘B’ the road into Villers.
Thus he drove away from A Squadron and what is more A Squadron was out of sight behind pt 213.
Wittmann did not even know they were there.Whilst in Villers Wittmann’s Tiger was knocked out. He was in action a total of perhaps 15 mins and never got anywhere near the location of A Squadron 4th CLY.
Despite this he is credited with the destruction of all the tanks in A Squadron. He was given a medal that says he knocked out 20+ tanks when he could not possibly have hit more than 9.
The German kill confirmation system was either seriously flawed or totally bogus.
-
I just read this on the Wiki source
Carlo D’Este views Wittmann’s attack as “one of the most amazing engagements in the history of armoured warfare”;[201] Max Hastings calls it “one of the most devastating single-handed actions of the war”;[73] and Antony Beevor claims it was “one of the most devastating ambushes in British military history”.[202] Hubert Meyer goes even further, attributing Operation Perch’s failure solely to Wittmann’s “courage, his tactical and technical abilities and […] the valor, the expertise and the camaraderie of his Panzer crew”.[203]
-
I just read this on the Wiki source
Carlo D’Este views Wittmann’s attack as “one of the most amazing engagements in the history of armoured warfare”;[201] Max Hastings calls it “one of the most devastating single-handed actions of the war”;[73] and Antony Beevor claims it was “one of the most devastating ambushes in British military history”.[202] Hubert Meyer goes even further, attributing Operation Perch’s failure solely to Wittmann’s “courage, his tactical and technical abilities and […] the valor, the expertise and the camaraderie of his Panzer crew”.[203]
Makes no difference to my point. Wittmann was given a medal for destroying 20+ tanks when he got nowhere near that total. Massive overclaim or outright invention? You chose.
-
I just read this on the Wiki source
Carlo D’Este views Wittmann’s attack as “one of the most amazing engagements in the history of armoured warfare”;[201] Max Hastings calls it “one of the most devastating single-handed actions of the war”;[73] and Antony Beevor claims it was “one of the most devastating ambushes in British military history”.[202] Hubert Meyer goes even further, attributing Operation Perch’s failure solely to Wittmann’s “courage, his tactical and technical abilities and […] the valor, the expertise and the camaraderie of his Panzer crew”.[203]
Makes no difference to my point. Wittmann was given a medal for destroying 20+ tanks when he got nowhere near that total. Massive overclaim or outright invention? You chose.
This is a totally false claim.
There’s no badge for destroying 20+ tanks in a single day. (Though there are cumulative badges).
For his actions during the battle, Wittmann was promoted to SS-Hauptsturmführer (captain) and awarded Swords to his Knight’s Cross of the Iron Cross.[38]
The swords surely were appropriate - as this was a significant victory.
Also of note from what I’ve been reading - and perhaps this will help you clarify.
In less than 15 minutes, 13–14 tanks, two anti-tank guns and 13–15 transport vehicles had been destroyed by the Heavy SS-Panzer Battalion 101, the vast majority attributed to Wittmann
Wittman was in command… and got probably the most kills.
The only revisionist in the room - is Doctor Lazarus.
-
The problem we have Lazarus, is that we’re probably missing the disambiguation of what the Allies considered tanks, and what the Germans considered tanks.
For example - if I’m Wittman.
To me, a Canadian Kangaroo APC would be considered a tank.
To the Canadians at the time… probably not.
-
Garg beat me to it, but I was going to say the medal was for blunting the 7th Division(and 30xxx) attack. Not for the number of kills.
His action, 20 mins of it, allowed the Germans the time and opportunity to counterattack and prevent the potentially dangerous flank attack from becoming reality.Maybe he never destroyed A Squadron as you say.
If there are no reports of it by the Regiment, then maybe it was a German mistake or propaganda.
This withstanding, your rude counter to my 13th June anniversary post, has upset some here and could have been kept to yourself. -
The problem we have Lazarus, is that we’re probably missing the disambiguation of what the Allies considered tanks, and what the Germans considered tanks.
The award citation:
Corps Headquarters 1st SS Panzer Corps
Corps C.P., 13 June 1944
“Leibstandarte”
On 12/6/44 SS-Obersturmfuhrer Wittmann was ordered to cover the corps’left flank
near Villers-Bocage, because it was assumed that English armored forces which had
broken through would advance south and southeast. There were no more panzer-
grenadiers available.
Wittmann arrived at the specified time with 6 Panzerkampfwagen VI. The Wittmann
Company was forced to change positions three times during the night of 13/6/1944
on account of very heavy artillery fire and on the morning of 13/6/1944 was
positioned near Reference Point 213 northeast of Villers-Bocage with 5 Panzer-
kampfwagen VI ready for action.
At eight o’clock a lookout reported to SS-Obersturmfuhrer Wittmann that a large
column of enemy tanks was advancing on the Caen - Villers-Bocage road.
Wittmann, who was in cover with his Tiger 200 mtrs south of the road, saw an English
armored battalion followed by an English armored troop carrier battalion.
The situation called for immediate action. Wittmann was unable to get orders to his
men who had moved off, instead he immediately drove into the English column with
his tank, firing on the move. This rapid intervention initially split the column. From
80 meters Wittmann destroyed 4 Sherman tanks, positioned his Tiger next to the
column and drove, 10 to 30 meters beside it firing in his direction of travel, along the
column. He succeeded in knocking out 15 heavy enemy tanks in a very short time.
An additional six tanks were hit and their crews forced to bail out. The accompany-
ing battalion in armored troop carriers was almost completely wiped out. The follow-
ing four tanks of the Wittmann Company took about 230 prisoners. Wittmann drove
on, in advance of his company, into Villers-Bocage. His tank was hit and immobi-
lized by a heavy enemy anti-tank gun in the center of the town. Nevertheless, he still
destroyed all the enemy vehicles in range and scattered the enemy unit. Wittmann
and his crew subsequently abandoned their tank and made their way north on foot
approximately 15 km to the Panzer-Lehr Division. There he reported to the la, turned
about with 15 Panzer IVs of the Panzer-Lehr Division and once again headed for
Villers-Bocage. His amphibious-Volkswagen having meanwhile found him, he then
drove to the 1st Company, which was deployed along the main street of Villers-
Bocage and based on his impressions of the battle and the situation committed them
against the enemy tanks and anti-tank guns still in the town.
Through his determined action Wittmann and his Tiger tank destroyed the greater
part of a powerful enemy offensive column already deep in the rear of our front
- the English 22nd Armoured Brigade - and acting solely on his own initiative, and
displaying the highest personal bravery, he averted a threat to the entire front of the
1st SS Panzer Corps. At that time there were no reserves available to the corps.
With today’s action Wittmann has destroyed 138 enemy tanks and 132 anti-tank
guns with his tank.
signed Dietrich
SS-Obergruppenfuhrer and Panzergeneral der Waffen-SS_The wording is clear on the definition of tanks knocked out:
" knocking out 15 heavy enemy tanks in a very short time.
An additional six tanks were hit"In anyones book that is 21 tanks and if you want confirmation then we know Wittmann left Russia with a total of 117 kills and the only time he was in action until the award citaion was at Villers Bocage on 13/6/44. There were no other kill claims around to confuse things.
The citation says:
"With today’s action Wittmann has destroyed 138 enemy tanks "
117 in Russia added to the 15 + 6 in the award citation = 138
It is clear that the award citation grants Witttmann 21 knocked out tanks at least and you could also say the mention of
" Wittmann destroyed 4 Sherman tank" means he actually got credit for 25 kills when the max he could possibly claim was 9 tanks. -
You prove my point Dr. Lazarus. The Germans considered “Shermans” to be heavy tanks! LOL!
And for the record, the Germans also considered Troops Carriers to be tanks - the whole reason the Canadians invented the Kangaroo APC (Because German infantry always let the tanks pass through to the objective, then attacked the oncoming infantry)
As for the Citation, history books, and comments, they all seem roughly close - with something like 15 tanks being destroyed, and another 6 were debateable.
Where is the discrepancy here?
The only person, and place, I’ve seen anyone say Wittman scored “9” tanks, if from you. And the photo you posted doesn’t show me anything?
-
Also keep in mind, that the days following D-Day weren’t exactly “perfectly” organized.
It would not surprise me if the allies had other units/vehicles attached to whatever groups were moving around at the time.
I’m doing more research on the whole subject this afternoon. We’ll find out what “really” happened either way.
-
@wittmann:
Garg beat me to it, but I was going to say the medal was for blunting the 7th Division(and 30xxx) attack. Not for the number of kills.
Wittmann did not ‘blunt’ a Corps attack.
What happened is that previously unknown Units were encountered during a thrust towards Villers Bocage. Wittmann was just the tip of the thrust. The actions across the front on June 13th convinved Montgomery that it would be risky to continue the attack and he closed down the operation. What you have done is twist this to 'Wittmann with a single Tiger completely defeated an attack by several Divisions. Total fantasy.@wittmann:
His action, 20 mins of it, allowed the Germans the time and opportunity to counterattack and prevent the potentially dangerous flank attack from becoming reality.
In a parallel universe maybe. What Wittmann did is best summed up by Wolfgang Schneider. He says:
"It is easy to judge the contents of the award nomination drafted by Sepp Dietrich. All the afore mentioned assertions are downright untrue"
Just to clarify things for you Schneider is the author of Tigers in Combat 1 & 2 and is telling you the claims made in the award citation I posted in my last message are ‘downright untrue’
and he further states:
"The reader can quite easily work out how many shots were on target: seven. And even if we take into account the artillery observation tank �armed� with a wooden gun and the light Stuart tanks, the number still does not come to 25. "
This is Schneider pointing out the claim Wittmann got 21-25 tanks is untrue.
@wittmann:
Maybe he never destroyed A Squadron as you say.
If there are no reports of it by the Regiment, then maybe it was a German mistake or propaganda.The battle happened and the British were forced to cancel the operation. What did not happen is a single man in a Tiger stopped a whole Corps. A Squadron 4th CLY was destroyed but not by Wittmann.
Schneiders considered opinion on Wittmann at Villers may suprise you:
_"6. The hasty, single-handed attack on the large and powerful British force may seem brave, but it goes against all the rules (no centre of gravity, no concentration of forces, importance of the moment of surprise). The action that followed by the bulk of the 2nd Company and by Mobius 1st Company came up against an enemy who had gone onto the defensive.
7. The carefree advance of a single panzer into a town occupied by the enemy is pure folly.
Thoughtlessness of this kind was to cost the “tank commander with the highest number of kills” his life on August 8th 1944, near Gaumesnil, during an attack casually launched in open country with an exposed flank._"
What Schneider means is Wittmann should have held his ground and reported back that a whole British Armoured Division was on the move with open flanks. By proper reporting the assembling Panzers could cut it off and wipe it out. Given the choice of either doing this or gaining a bit of personal glory Wittmann chose glory.
Remember now this is what Wolfgang Schneider says not me (though I agree!)
@wittmann:
This withstanding, your rude counter to my 13th June anniversary post, has upset some here and could have been kept to yourself.
I presume
that would be because you prefer the fiction rather than the facts? -
The Wiki account
South of Point 213 with his men of 2nd Company, 101st SS Heavy Panzer Battalion, Wittmann was surprised to discover British armour advancing through Villers-Bocage much sooner than had been expected.[95] He later stated: “I had no time to assemble my company; instead I had to act quickly, as I had to assume that the enemy had already spotted me and would destroy me where I stood. I set off with one tank and passed the order to the others not to retreat a single step but to hold their ground.”[96]
Wittmann’s Tiger was spotted at approximately 09:00 by Sergeant O’Connor of the Rifle Brigade, who was travelling towards Point 213 in a half-track and broke radio silence to give the only warning the British force received.[69] The Tiger emerged from cover onto Route Nationale 175 and engaged the rearmost tank of A Squadron 4CLY at Point 213—a Cromwell—destroying it(1).[70][97] A Sherman Firefly responded but was itself ‘knocked out’(2).[nb 10] Burning, the Firefly came to rest across the road, impeding any attempt to either reinforce the ridge or to withdraw from it.[98] The British at Point 213 then came under fire from the rest of Wittmann’s command, losing three more tanks (Other).[98][99]
Wittmann now headed for Villers-Bocage.[98] Along the road the men of the Rifle Brigade desperately attempted to find PIAT anti-tank weapons and set up a 6 pounder anti-tank gun, but as the Tiger drew closer panic set in and the riflemen abandoned their efforts and sought shelter. Along the roadside, one by one the brigade’s carriers burst into flames as their fuel tanks were ruptured by machine gun and high explosive fire. (No count?)[98][100][nb 11] However, few casualties were inflicted.[11] Reaching the eastern end of Villers-Bocage, Wittmann engaged three M5 Stuart light tanks of the 4CLY’s reconnaissance troop. One, under the command of Lieutenant Ingram, attempted to block the road but was hit, exploding violently.[98] The other two soon followed suit. (5 total now + Unkown APC’s))[100][nb 12]
In the town the tanks of 4CLY’s Regimental Headquarters attempted to escape, but their reverse speed was “painfully slow”.[11] One engaged Wittmann’s Tiger, managing to get off two shots before being destroyed (6+).[11][105] Two others, their commanders believing they were being engaged from the flank, reversed off the road into gardens; 4CLY’s Adjutant, Captain Pat Dyas, found his Cromwell further screened behind a small barn. The Tiger rammed its way past the wrecked Stuart and continued towards the centre of town, knocking out one of the two British tanks(7+) but missing Dyas.[105] Lieutenant Charles Pearce took his scout car and, locating the rest of the reconnaissance troop in the middle of town, warned them about what was coming their way. While they quickly got off the road Pearce continued further west to alert 4CLY’s B Squadron.[11] Wittmann, meanwhile, had accounted for another Cromwell (8+),[106] and as he made his way onto Villers-Bocage’s main street destroyed two artillery Observation Post (OP) tanks—a Cromwell and a Sherman (10+)[nb 13]—belonging to 5RHA.[107] These were followed by the intelligence officer’s scout car and the medical officer’s half-track. (More extra Vehicles)[109]
Accounts differ as to what happened next. Historians George Forty and Daniel Taylor record that following the destruction of the OP tanks, Wittmann briefly duelled without success against a Sherman Firefly before withdrawing.[111][112] This duel collapsed a house that also contained a German sniper, as shells from Wittmann’s Tiger hit it.[113] In the Yeomanry Association’s The Sharpshooter newsletter, tanker Robert Moore recalls that he was the one responsible for forcing Wittmann to pull back, when a shot from his tank dented the Tiger’s driver visor.[114] These accounts attest that Wittmann’s withdrawal brought him face to face with Dyas’s Cromwell, which, having been bypassed, had been following the Tiger seeking a shot at its thinner rear armour. Dyas opened fire without effect; Wittmann returned fire and destroyed the British tank (11+).[111] Charles Pearce, however, puts the destruction of Dyas’s tank earlier, suggesting that Wittmann had engaged it by traversing the Tiger’s turret around before advancing onto the town’s main street; (Still 11+ either way)[115] a position supported by historian Henri Marie. Escaping the destruction of his tank, Dyas was shot at by German infantry positioned in houses along the street.[116] Wittmann’s Tiger is reported to have continued eastwards to the outskirts of Villers-Bocage before being disabled at the road junction to Tilly-sur-Seulles by a 6 Pounder anti-tank gun under the command of Sergeant Bray.[117][nb 14] However, Wittmann’s own account contradicts this. He states that his tank was disabled by an anti-tank gun in the town centre.[96]
In fewer than 15 minutes, 13–14 tanks, two anti-tank guns and 13–15 transport vehicles had been destroyed by the 101st SS Heavy Panzer Battalion, (True and accurate) the vast majority by Wittmann’s tank. (Also True)[99][120] Now on foot, Wittmann made his way to the headquarters of the Panzer Lehr Division at the Cháteau d’Orbois, 3.7 miles (6.0 km) north of Villers-Bocage.[117]
-Again, I cite disambiguation, as the APC’s would have been considered armor/“tanks” by the Germans. Which validates the claim (the + symbols).
-Wittman was in command of the force that attacked 213, some of that is to his credit for seizing the opportunity too.
-The whole affair is incredible, and does deserve significant representation/merit.
The only point I can see you make Lazarus, is that Wittman destroyed 11 tanks himself, and up to another 10 vehicles. Â Instead of 21 “heavy” tanks.
This is all probably just being lost in translation.
Also understand that a lot of this allied equipment was -new- in the German’s Eyes. Â Wittman probably had never seen a firefly before June 13th. Â Or the APC’s before in his life, and it’s not like these guys had Wikipedia to cross reference.
-
False statements by Dr. Lazarus.
1. Makes no difference to my point. Wittmann was given a medal for destroying 20+ tanks when he got nowhere near that total. Massive overclaim or outright invention? You chose.
Proven False x2
2. Wittmann engaged at most 2 Stuarts from Recce Troop, 4 RHQ tanks and 2 OP tanks and possibly the rearmost A Squadron Firefly.
9 Tanks in totalProven False.
The numbers claimed by Wittmann (20+ tanks) is demonstrably at least twice the number of tanks he even saw.
False.
Typical spin.
Innappropriate - unwelcome, and also false. Wittman (The AA.org user) had no intention to rewrite history, but rather remind us of the date/event at Villers Bocage.
The maximum number of kills he could claim was 9 yet he was awarded 21 kills. All the other tanks (A Squadron) were out of sight and over a hill.
How do you explain that?Incredibly False, most of Wittmans kills were no where near Pt 213, but In villers Bocage… hence the term, “Battle of Villers Bocage”
Shall I continue?
-
As for the Citation, history books, and comments, they all seem roughly close - with something like 15 tanks being destroyed, and another 6 were debateable.
He left Russia with 117 kills Now he has 138. That is an increase of 21.
15 + 6 = 21. You might not want to face it but it is reality. -
A fitting effigy of Dr. Lazarus’s argument.
Hollow… pointless… rusty… destroyed.
-
As for the Citation, history books, and comments, they all seem roughly close - with something like 15 tanks being destroyed, and another 6 were debateable.
He left Russia with 117 kills Now he has 138. That is an increase of 21.
15 + 6 = 21. You might not want to face it but it is reality.Per my comments above Lazarus.
“The only point I can see you make Lazarus, is that Wittman destroyed 11 tanks himself, and up to another 10 vehicles. Instead of 21 “heavy” tanks.”
Suggested Topics
