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    Lazarus

    @Lazarus

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    Latest posts made by Lazarus

    • RE: Wittmann stops the 7th Armour dead at Villers Bocage

      @wittmann:

      Wittmann jumped in a tank(had a faulty engine, so changed it for another) and headed towards the British through instinct, not any idea if self seeking glory.
      All reports point to his being a humble man. He was doing his job.
      He went alone, because he did not think he had time to mobilise his (under strength) company.

      He did not have to attack. He could simply stay hidden and allow the whole of 7th Armoured Division to advance into a trap.  He gave away the element of surprise and when the rest of  SS 101 attacked  they were met a  a prepared enemy who knocked  most of them out totally defeated the attempt to retake Villers Bocage.

      @wittmann:

      If he owes his fame to others’ lies, so be it.

      Quite simply the most absurd statement you could ever make.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Wittmann stops the 7th Armour dead at Villers Bocage

      @Gargantua:

      The photo you posted above obviously was taken several hours, if not days after the event .

      It is from a film (one of two) taken a day or two later. All the wrecked tanks are still in the positions they were knocked out in (even the Tigers) and thus I can say with absolute certainty if there was a wrecked Cromwell near this Firefly it would still be there . It is not. If it was moved from a blocking position it still would be somewhere on the road. There is no Cromwell or any other tank near the Firefly ‘Blondie’. The next  knocked out British tank in front of Blondie is  over the hill at Pt 213.
      The inescapable conclusion is the claim Wittmann made that he knocked out 2 tanks as he drove on to the RN 175 is wrong.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Wittmann stops the 7th Armour dead at Villers Bocage

      .

      Also the writer of the Wiki article is confusing Wittmann’s account of the 2 tanks he fired at on the RN 175-one of which could be the Firefly ‘Blondie’  shown  below knocked out on the RN 175

      and the Firefly ‘Allakeefek’  destroyed  at Pt 213.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Wittmann stops the 7th Armour dead at Villers Bocage

      @Gargantua:

      The Wiki account

      The Tiger emerged from cover onto Route Nationale 175 and engaged the rearmost tank of A Squadron 4CLY at Point 213—a Cromwell—destroying it(1).[70][97] A Sherman Firefly responded but was itself ‘knocked out’(2).[nb 10] Burning, the Firefly came to rest across the road, impeding any attempt to either reinforce the ridge or to withdraw from it.[98]

      I said it was the best not perfect. The photo I gave you earlier clearly shows the rearmost tank of A Squardron. It is  a Firefly. Note it is not
      blocking the road and that there is no knocked out Cromwell near it. Try again.

      Seeing as you are struggling badly here I will point out the account of the 2 tanks being  hit in this position is based  Wittmann’s own account given  in a radio interview just after the battle. Wittmann got it wrong!

      http://www.wehrmacht-lexikon.de/waffen-SS/konvolut/wittmann/audioarchiv/index.php

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Wittmann stops the 7th Armour dead at Villers Bocage

      @Gargantua:

      Shall I continue?

      By all means keep digging.
      So far your whole case consists of ‘I don’t believe you’
      You have no facts no references just your blind faith in the myth.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Wittmann stops the 7th Armour dead at Villers Bocage

      @Gargantua:

      As for the Citation, history books, and comments, they all seem roughly close - with something like 15 tanks being destroyed, and another 6 were debateable.

      He left Russia with 117 kills Now he has 138. That is an increase of 21.
      15 + 6 = 21. You might not want to face it but it is reality.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Wittmann stops the 7th Armour dead at Villers Bocage

      @wittmann:

      Garg beat me to it, but I was going to say the medal was for blunting the 7th Division(and 30xxx) attack. Not for the number of kills.

      Wittmann did not ‘blunt’ a Corps attack.
      What happened is that previously unknown Units were encountered during a thrust towards Villers Bocage. Wittmann  was just the tip of the thrust. The actions across the front on June 13th convinved Montgomery that it would be  risky to continue the attack and he closed down the operation. What you have done is twist this to 'Wittmann with a single Tiger completely defeated an attack by several Divisions. Total fantasy.

      @wittmann:

      His action, 20 mins of it, allowed the Germans the time and opportunity to counterattack and prevent the potentially dangerous flank attack from becoming reality.

      In a parallel universe maybe. What Wittmann did is best summed up by Wolfgang Schneider. He says:

      "It is easy to judge the contents of the award nomination drafted by Sepp Dietrich. All the afore mentioned assertions are downright untrue"

      Just to clarify things for you Schneider is the author of Tigers in Combat 1 & 2  and is telling you the claims made in the award citation I posted in my last message are ‘downright untrue’

      and he further states:

      "The reader can quite easily work out how many shots were on target: seven. And even if we take into account the artillery observation tank �armed� with a wooden gun and the light Stuart tanks, the number still does not come to 25. "

      This is Schneider pointing out the claim Wittmann got 21-25 tanks is untrue.

      @wittmann:

      Maybe he never destroyed A Squadron as you say.
      If there are no reports of it by the Regiment, then maybe it was a German mistake or propaganda.

      The battle happened and the British were forced to cancel the operation.  What did not happen is a single man in a Tiger stopped a whole Corps. A Squadron 4th CLY was destroyed but not by Wittmann.

      Schneiders considered opinion on Wittmann at Villers may suprise you:

      _"6. The hasty, single-handed attack on the large and powerful British force may seem brave, but it goes against all the rules (no centre of gravity, no concentration of forces, importance of the moment of surprise). The action that followed by the bulk of the 2nd Company and by Mobius 1st Company came up against an enemy who had gone onto the defensive.

      7. The carefree advance of a single panzer into a town occupied by the enemy is pure folly.

      Thoughtlessness of this kind was to cost the “tank commander with the highest number of kills” his life on August 8th 1944, near Gaumesnil, during an attack casually launched in open country with an exposed flank._"

      What Schneider means is Wittmann should have held his ground and reported back that a whole British Armoured Division was on the move with open flanks. By proper reporting the assembling Panzers could cut it off and wipe it out. Given the choice of either doing this or gaining a bit of personal glory Wittmann chose glory.

      Remember now this is what Wolfgang Schneider says not me (though I agree!)

      @wittmann:

      This withstanding, your rude counter to my 13th June anniversary post, has upset some here and could have been kept to yourself.

      I presume
      that would be because you prefer the fiction rather than the facts?

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Wittmann stops the 7th Armour dead at Villers Bocage

      @Gargantua:

      The problem we have Lazarus, is that we’re probably missing the disambiguation of what the Allies considered tanks, and what the Germans considered tanks.

      The award citation:

      Corps Headquarters 1st SS Panzer Corps              
       Corps C.P., 13 June 1944
      “Leibstandarte”

             On 12/6/44 SS-Obersturmfuhrer Wittmann was ordered to cover the corps’left flank
             near Villers-Bocage, because it was assumed that English armored forces which had
             broken through would advance south and southeast. There were no more panzer-
             grenadiers available.
             Wittmann arrived at the specified time with 6 Panzerkampfwagen VI. The Wittmann
             Company was forced to change positions three times during the night of 13/6/1944
             on account of very heavy artillery fire and on the morning of 13/6/1944 was
             positioned near Reference Point 213 northeast of Villers-Bocage with 5 Panzer-
             kampfwagen VI ready for action.
             At eight o’clock a lookout reported to SS-Obersturmfuhrer Wittmann that a large
             column of enemy tanks was advancing on the Caen - Villers-Bocage road.
             Wittmann, who was in cover with his Tiger 200 mtrs south of the road, saw an English
             armored battalion followed by an English armored troop carrier battalion.
             The situation called for immediate action. Wittmann was unable to get orders to his
             men who had moved off, instead he immediately drove into the English column with
             his tank, firing on the move. This rapid intervention initially split the column. From
             80 meters Wittmann destroyed 4 Sherman tanks, positioned his Tiger next to the
             column and drove, 10 to 30 meters beside it firing in his direction of travel, along the
             column. He succeeded in knocking out 15 heavy enemy tanks in a very short time.
             An additional six tanks were hit and their crews forced to bail out. The accompany-
             ing battalion in armored troop carriers was almost completely wiped out. The follow-
             ing four tanks of the Wittmann Company took about 230 prisoners. Wittmann drove
             on, in advance of his company, into Villers-Bocage. His tank was hit and immobi-
             lized by a heavy enemy anti-tank gun in the center of the town. Nevertheless, he still
             destroyed all the enemy vehicles in range and scattered the enemy unit. Wittmann
             and his crew subsequently abandoned their tank and made their way north on foot
             approximately 15 km to the Panzer-Lehr Division. There he reported to the la, turned
             about with 15 Panzer IVs of the Panzer-Lehr Division and once again headed for
             Villers-Bocage. His amphibious-Volkswagen having meanwhile found him, he then
             drove to the 1st Company, which was deployed along the main street of Villers-
             Bocage and based on his impressions of the battle and the situation committed them
             against the enemy tanks and anti-tank guns still in the town.
             Through his determined action Wittmann and his Tiger tank destroyed the greater
             part of a powerful enemy offensive column already deep in the rear of our front
             - the English 22nd Armoured Brigade - and acting solely on his own initiative, and
             displaying the highest personal bravery, he averted a threat to the entire front of the
             1st SS Panzer Corps. At that time there were no reserves available to the corps.
             With today’s action Wittmann has destroyed 138 enemy tanks and 132 anti-tank
             guns with his tank.
        signed Dietrich
        SS-Obergruppenfuhrer and Panzergeneral der Waffen-SS_

      The wording is clear on the definition of tanks knocked out:

      " knocking out 15 heavy enemy tanks in a very short time.
             An additional six tanks were hit"

      In anyones book that is 21 tanks and if you want confirmation then  we know Wittmann left Russia with a total of 117 kills and the only time he was in action until the award citaion was at Villers Bocage on 13/6/44. There were no other kill claims around to confuse things.

      The citation says:

      "With today’s action Wittmann has destroyed 138 enemy tanks "

      117 in Russia added to the 15 + 6 in the award citation = 138

      It is clear that the award citation grants Witttmann 21 knocked out tanks at least and you could also say the mention of
      " Wittmann destroyed 4 Sherman tank" means he actually got credit for 25 kills when the max he could possibly claim was 9 tanks.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Wittmann stops the 7th Armour dead at Villers Bocage

      @Gargantua:

      I just read this on the Wiki source

      Carlo D’Este views Wittmann’s attack as “one of the most amazing engagements in the history of armoured warfare”;[201] Max Hastings calls it “one of the most devastating single-handed actions of the war”;[73] and Antony Beevor claims it was “one of the most devastating ambushes in British military history”.[202] Hubert Meyer goes even further, attributing Operation Perch’s failure solely to Wittmann’s “courage, his tactical and technical abilities and […] the valor, the expertise and the camaraderie of his Panzer crew”.[203]

      Makes no difference to my point. Wittmann was given a medal for destroying 20+ tanks when he got nowhere near that total. Massive overclaim or outright invention? You chose.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Wittmann stops the 7th Armour dead at Villers Bocage

      @aequitas:

      I leave it to this ,that I let have you, your opinion and that I got my view of the events based on what we know and learned from the past.

      Opinion has no impact on the facts.
      It is really simple.
      Wittmann drove on to the RN 175 road from Villers Bocage to Caen.
      He had 2 choices.
      A)Turn right to  Pt 213.
      B)Turn left and go into Villers Bocage
      He chose ‘B’ the road into Villers.
      Thus he drove away from A Squadron and what is more A Squadron was  out of sight behind pt 213.
      Wittmann did not even know they were there.

      Whilst in Villers Wittmann’s Tiger was knocked out. He was in action a total of perhaps 15 mins and never got anywhere near the location of A Squadron 4th CLY.

      Despite this  he is credited with the destruction of all the tanks in A Squadron. He was given a medal that says he knocked out 20+ tanks when he could not possibly have hit more than 9.

      The German  kill confirmation system was either seriously  flawed or totally bogus.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus