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    Posts made by Lazarus

    • RE: Wittmann stops the 7th Armour dead at Villers Bocage

      @wittmann:

      Wittmann jumped in a tank(had a faulty engine, so changed it for another) and headed towards the British through instinct, not any idea if self seeking glory.
      All reports point to his being a humble man. He was doing his job.
      He went alone, because he did not think he had time to mobilise his (under strength) company.

      He did not have to attack. He could simply stay hidden and allow the whole of 7th Armoured Division to advance into a trap.  He gave away the element of surprise and when the rest of  SS 101 attacked  they were met a  a prepared enemy who knocked  most of them out totally defeated the attempt to retake Villers Bocage.

      @wittmann:

      If he owes his fame to others’ lies, so be it.

      Quite simply the most absurd statement you could ever make.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Wittmann stops the 7th Armour dead at Villers Bocage

      @Gargantua:

      The photo you posted above obviously was taken several hours, if not days after the event .

      It is from a film (one of two) taken a day or two later. All the wrecked tanks are still in the positions they were knocked out in (even the Tigers) and thus I can say with absolute certainty if there was a wrecked Cromwell near this Firefly it would still be there . It is not. If it was moved from a blocking position it still would be somewhere on the road. There is no Cromwell or any other tank near the Firefly ‘Blondie’. The next  knocked out British tank in front of Blondie is  over the hill at Pt 213.
      The inescapable conclusion is the claim Wittmann made that he knocked out 2 tanks as he drove on to the RN 175 is wrong.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Wittmann stops the 7th Armour dead at Villers Bocage

      .

      Also the writer of the Wiki article is confusing Wittmann’s account of the 2 tanks he fired at on the RN 175-one of which could be the Firefly ‘Blondie’  shown  below knocked out on the RN 175

      and the Firefly ‘Allakeefek’  destroyed  at Pt 213.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Wittmann stops the 7th Armour dead at Villers Bocage

      @Gargantua:

      The Wiki account

      The Tiger emerged from cover onto Route Nationale 175 and engaged the rearmost tank of A Squadron 4CLY at Point 213—a Cromwell—destroying it(1).[70][97] A Sherman Firefly responded but was itself ‘knocked out’(2).[nb 10] Burning, the Firefly came to rest across the road, impeding any attempt to either reinforce the ridge or to withdraw from it.[98]

      I said it was the best not perfect. The photo I gave you earlier clearly shows the rearmost tank of A Squardron. It is  a Firefly. Note it is not
      blocking the road and that there is no knocked out Cromwell near it. Try again.

      Seeing as you are struggling badly here I will point out the account of the 2 tanks being  hit in this position is based  Wittmann’s own account given  in a radio interview just after the battle. Wittmann got it wrong!

      http://www.wehrmacht-lexikon.de/waffen-SS/konvolut/wittmann/audioarchiv/index.php

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Wittmann stops the 7th Armour dead at Villers Bocage

      @Gargantua:

      Shall I continue?

      By all means keep digging.
      So far your whole case consists of ‘I don’t believe you’
      You have no facts no references just your blind faith in the myth.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Wittmann stops the 7th Armour dead at Villers Bocage

      @Gargantua:

      As for the Citation, history books, and comments, they all seem roughly close - with something like 15 tanks being destroyed, and another 6 were debateable.

      He left Russia with 117 kills Now he has 138. That is an increase of 21.
      15 + 6 = 21. You might not want to face it but it is reality.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Wittmann stops the 7th Armour dead at Villers Bocage

      @wittmann:

      Garg beat me to it, but I was going to say the medal was for blunting the 7th Division(and 30xxx) attack. Not for the number of kills.

      Wittmann did not ‘blunt’ a Corps attack.
      What happened is that previously unknown Units were encountered during a thrust towards Villers Bocage. Wittmann  was just the tip of the thrust. The actions across the front on June 13th convinved Montgomery that it would be  risky to continue the attack and he closed down the operation. What you have done is twist this to 'Wittmann with a single Tiger completely defeated an attack by several Divisions. Total fantasy.

      @wittmann:

      His action, 20 mins of it, allowed the Germans the time and opportunity to counterattack and prevent the potentially dangerous flank attack from becoming reality.

      In a parallel universe maybe. What Wittmann did is best summed up by Wolfgang Schneider. He says:

      "It is easy to judge the contents of the award nomination drafted by Sepp Dietrich. All the afore mentioned assertions are downright untrue"

      Just to clarify things for you Schneider is the author of Tigers in Combat 1 & 2  and is telling you the claims made in the award citation I posted in my last message are ‘downright untrue’

      and he further states:

      "The reader can quite easily work out how many shots were on target: seven. And even if we take into account the artillery observation tank �armed� with a wooden gun and the light Stuart tanks, the number still does not come to 25. "

      This is Schneider pointing out the claim Wittmann got 21-25 tanks is untrue.

      @wittmann:

      Maybe he never destroyed A Squadron as you say.
      If there are no reports of it by the Regiment, then maybe it was a German mistake or propaganda.

      The battle happened and the British were forced to cancel the operation.  What did not happen is a single man in a Tiger stopped a whole Corps. A Squadron 4th CLY was destroyed but not by Wittmann.

      Schneiders considered opinion on Wittmann at Villers may suprise you:

      _"6. The hasty, single-handed attack on the large and powerful British force may seem brave, but it goes against all the rules (no centre of gravity, no concentration of forces, importance of the moment of surprise). The action that followed by the bulk of the 2nd Company and by Mobius 1st Company came up against an enemy who had gone onto the defensive.

      7. The carefree advance of a single panzer into a town occupied by the enemy is pure folly.

      Thoughtlessness of this kind was to cost the “tank commander with the highest number of kills” his life on August 8th 1944, near Gaumesnil, during an attack casually launched in open country with an exposed flank._"

      What Schneider means is Wittmann should have held his ground and reported back that a whole British Armoured Division was on the move with open flanks. By proper reporting the assembling Panzers could cut it off and wipe it out. Given the choice of either doing this or gaining a bit of personal glory Wittmann chose glory.

      Remember now this is what Wolfgang Schneider says not me (though I agree!)

      @wittmann:

      This withstanding, your rude counter to my 13th June anniversary post, has upset some here and could have been kept to yourself.

      I presume
      that would be because you prefer the fiction rather than the facts?

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Wittmann stops the 7th Armour dead at Villers Bocage

      @Gargantua:

      The problem we have Lazarus, is that we’re probably missing the disambiguation of what the Allies considered tanks, and what the Germans considered tanks.

      The award citation:

      Corps Headquarters 1st SS Panzer Corps              
       Corps C.P., 13 June 1944
      “Leibstandarte”

             On 12/6/44 SS-Obersturmfuhrer Wittmann was ordered to cover the corps’left flank
             near Villers-Bocage, because it was assumed that English armored forces which had
             broken through would advance south and southeast. There were no more panzer-
             grenadiers available.
             Wittmann arrived at the specified time with 6 Panzerkampfwagen VI. The Wittmann
             Company was forced to change positions three times during the night of 13/6/1944
             on account of very heavy artillery fire and on the morning of 13/6/1944 was
             positioned near Reference Point 213 northeast of Villers-Bocage with 5 Panzer-
             kampfwagen VI ready for action.
             At eight o’clock a lookout reported to SS-Obersturmfuhrer Wittmann that a large
             column of enemy tanks was advancing on the Caen - Villers-Bocage road.
             Wittmann, who was in cover with his Tiger 200 mtrs south of the road, saw an English
             armored battalion followed by an English armored troop carrier battalion.
             The situation called for immediate action. Wittmann was unable to get orders to his
             men who had moved off, instead he immediately drove into the English column with
             his tank, firing on the move. This rapid intervention initially split the column. From
             80 meters Wittmann destroyed 4 Sherman tanks, positioned his Tiger next to the
             column and drove, 10 to 30 meters beside it firing in his direction of travel, along the
             column. He succeeded in knocking out 15 heavy enemy tanks in a very short time.
             An additional six tanks were hit and their crews forced to bail out. The accompany-
             ing battalion in armored troop carriers was almost completely wiped out. The follow-
             ing four tanks of the Wittmann Company took about 230 prisoners. Wittmann drove
             on, in advance of his company, into Villers-Bocage. His tank was hit and immobi-
             lized by a heavy enemy anti-tank gun in the center of the town. Nevertheless, he still
             destroyed all the enemy vehicles in range and scattered the enemy unit. Wittmann
             and his crew subsequently abandoned their tank and made their way north on foot
             approximately 15 km to the Panzer-Lehr Division. There he reported to the la, turned
             about with 15 Panzer IVs of the Panzer-Lehr Division and once again headed for
             Villers-Bocage. His amphibious-Volkswagen having meanwhile found him, he then
             drove to the 1st Company, which was deployed along the main street of Villers-
             Bocage and based on his impressions of the battle and the situation committed them
             against the enemy tanks and anti-tank guns still in the town.
             Through his determined action Wittmann and his Tiger tank destroyed the greater
             part of a powerful enemy offensive column already deep in the rear of our front
             - the English 22nd Armoured Brigade - and acting solely on his own initiative, and
             displaying the highest personal bravery, he averted a threat to the entire front of the
             1st SS Panzer Corps. At that time there were no reserves available to the corps.
             With today’s action Wittmann has destroyed 138 enemy tanks and 132 anti-tank
             guns with his tank.
        signed Dietrich
        SS-Obergruppenfuhrer and Panzergeneral der Waffen-SS_

      The wording is clear on the definition of tanks knocked out:

      " knocking out 15 heavy enemy tanks in a very short time.
             An additional six tanks were hit"

      In anyones book that is 21 tanks and if you want confirmation then  we know Wittmann left Russia with a total of 117 kills and the only time he was in action until the award citaion was at Villers Bocage on 13/6/44. There were no other kill claims around to confuse things.

      The citation says:

      "With today’s action Wittmann has destroyed 138 enemy tanks "

      117 in Russia added to the 15 + 6 in the award citation = 138

      It is clear that the award citation grants Witttmann 21 knocked out tanks at least and you could also say the mention of
      " Wittmann destroyed 4 Sherman tank" means he actually got credit for 25 kills when the max he could possibly claim was 9 tanks.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Wittmann stops the 7th Armour dead at Villers Bocage

      @Gargantua:

      I just read this on the Wiki source

      Carlo D’Este views Wittmann’s attack as “one of the most amazing engagements in the history of armoured warfare”;[201] Max Hastings calls it “one of the most devastating single-handed actions of the war”;[73] and Antony Beevor claims it was “one of the most devastating ambushes in British military history”.[202] Hubert Meyer goes even further, attributing Operation Perch’s failure solely to Wittmann’s “courage, his tactical and technical abilities and […] the valor, the expertise and the camaraderie of his Panzer crew”.[203]

      Makes no difference to my point. Wittmann was given a medal for destroying 20+ tanks when he got nowhere near that total. Massive overclaim or outright invention? You chose.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Wittmann stops the 7th Armour dead at Villers Bocage

      @aequitas:

      I leave it to this ,that I let have you, your opinion and that I got my view of the events based on what we know and learned from the past.

      Opinion has no impact on the facts.
      It is really simple.
      Wittmann drove on to the RN 175 road from Villers Bocage to Caen.
      He had 2 choices.
      A)Turn right to  Pt 213.
      B)Turn left and go into Villers Bocage
      He chose ‘B’ the road into Villers.
      Thus he drove away from A Squadron and what is more A Squadron was  out of sight behind pt 213.
      Wittmann did not even know they were there.

      Whilst in Villers Wittmann’s Tiger was knocked out. He was in action a total of perhaps 15 mins and never got anywhere near the location of A Squadron 4th CLY.

      Despite this  he is credited with the destruction of all the tanks in A Squadron. He was given a medal that says he knocked out 20+ tanks when he could not possibly have hit more than 9.

      The German  kill confirmation system was either seriously  flawed or totally bogus.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Wittmann stops the 7th Armour dead at Villers Bocage

      @aequitas:

      @aequitas:

      On June 13th of 1944, Wittmann�s company destroyed entire 4th County of London Yeomanry Regiment travelling on the road No.175 to Villers-Bocage, at the Hill No.213.

      HE WHO IS ABLE TO READ GOTS THE UPPER HAND!!

      It says: Wittmann’s Company…

      hätte es vielleicht doch in deutsch schreiben sollen!
      should have written it in german!

      Write it in Greek if you prefer but  it wont change the fact it is wrong.
      Neither Wittmann, his entire company, 1st kp, or Pz Lehr came even close to destroying 4th CLY.

      @aequitas:

      And regarding sources dear Lazarus, Achtung Panzer is a German source, wiki is not a source it´s more a plattform where everybody could fill in the blanks what he might fits into. I ´ll see if i can get any SIGNAL source or of former members of the CLY or the 22nd Regiment…but allways read with caution, in the end it is all self interpretation.

      Atchung Panzer is full of errors. You would have to be really desperate to rely on it as any kind of source.
      I have checked the Wiki page on Villers and it is by far the most accurate account on the net.
      Signal magazine had an article on Villers Bocage but some of the photos it used were not taken at Villers Bocage and one photo was faked to make the  destruction look worse than it was.
      You can find the War Diary and Regimental Magazine for 4th CLY online but they were in 22nd Armoured Brigade not 22nd Regiment.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Wittmann stops the 7th Armour dead at Villers Bocage

      Wittmann got on to the RN 175 road at Les Haut Vents which is at 185 mtrs, some 28 mtrs below the peak of Pt 213  1200 mtrs (Yellow X)to the right.
      He turned left into Villers Bocage and it is  probable he first fired at and  hit the Firefly tank ‘Blondie’ shown below. Wittmanns own account given just after the action mentions only that he fired at 2 tanks to his left before he turned right into Villers where he was knocked out.
      Note the crest of Pt 213 in the distance and the complete absence of any other tank wrecks on the road. Blondie is the only one. . A Squadron were  on the other side of the hill.

      The 6 wrecked tanks (2 Recce Stuarts and 4 RHQ Cromwells) are at the entrance to the town of  Villers Bocage
      Villers bocage is in a depression  some  100 mtrs below Pt 213.
      A Squadron were over the crest and on the other side of Pt 213.

      The Wiki article on Villers Bocage is the most accurate account on the web.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Wittmann stops the 7th Armour dead at Villers Bocage

      @Gargantua:

      What’s your source Dr. Lazarus?

      Simple geography. The position of every tank wreck is known as is the route Wittmann took into the town.
      Wittmann could not possibly knock out any more than the 9 tanks on that road  that  came into his direct sight.
      Between Wittmann and A Squadron there was a large hill (pt 213) so they never came into contact.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Wittmann stops the 7th Armour dead at Villers Bocage

      @aequitas:

      On June 13th of 1944, Wittmann�s company destroyed entire 4th County of London Yeomanry Regiment travelling on the road No.175 to Villers-Bocage, at the Hill No.213.

      No he did not.

      4th County Of London Yeomanry consisted of:
      RHQ Troop     4 Tanks
      Recce troop   11 Stuart tanks
      AA Troop       4 Tanks
      A Squadron    20 tanks
      B Squadron    20 tanks
      C Squadron    20 tanks

      Attached to HQ Troop were 4 Artillery Observation tanks
      In all some 83 tanks.

      Wittmann engaged at most 2 Stuarts from Recce Troop, 4 RHQ tanks and 2 OP tanks and possibly the rearmost A Squadron Firefly.
      9 Tanks in total

      4th CLY lost 25 tanks from the original 83 so any claim Wittmann (or anyone) 'wiped out ’ the whole Regiment is absurd

      @aequitas:

      FROM “ACHTUNG PANZER” allready translated (this saved my job)

      The whole account is riddled with errors. Find a better source. Wiki is much more accurate.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Wittmann stops the 7th Armour dead at Villers Bocage

      @wittmann:

      I cannot pinpoint from my sources how many A Squadron tanks Wittmann personally destroyed

      Possibly one (Sherman Firefly ‘Blondie’)but that was it.

      @wittmann:

      so I cannot pinpoint from my sources how many A Squadron tanks Wittmann personally destroyed. His 2nd Company did wipe out the balance of them after his engaging them.

      Their is no dispute most of the Cromwells and 4 Firefly tanks in A Squadron were lost but it is also a fact only 3 were engaged and penetrated by Tigers (2 Firefly and 1 Cromwell) because the majority (circa 15-20 tanks) were simply abandoned and/or set on fire by the crews.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Wittmann stops the 7th Armour dead at Villers Bocage

      @Clyde85:

      I’m reminded of reading Has von Lucks memiors and his actions during the same time period.

      That would be the von Luck who claims he  personally saved the day (July18, Goodwood) by forcing an 8.8cm AA Unit to fire on the advancing British tanks .
      Trouble is no one can find out a scrap of evidence that there were any guns there at all. Apart from the claim of von Luck there is not a shred of evidence it happened.

      @wittmann:

      The fact the town was not captured and the Division and XXX Corps attack was called off suggests the losses in tanks were high enough to render any more offensive action out of the question until loses were made up.

      You might want to reflect that 11th Armoured Division suffered 120 tank casualties on 18/7/44 and was able to continue the attack on both 19 and 20th July and compare that to the 25 tank losses (25 from a Divisional total of 280) you claimed rendered 7th Armoured Division unfit for further action at Villers Bocage.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Wittmann stops the 7th Armour dead at Villers Bocage

      @wittmann:

      21 kills is a large number of kills, but Wittmann was not the only Ace to record large numbers of tank kills.

      Let me put it simply for you. In the area where Wittmann drove down the road there was a total of 9 British tanks. The maximum number of kills he could claim was 9 yet he was awarded 21 kills.  All the other tanks (A Squadron) were out of sight and over a hill.
      How do you explain that?

      @wittmann:

      The English were totally taken by surprise by Wittmann’s appearance and audacity.
      They had parked the tanks, some may even have had crew members out of their tanks when he attacked A Squadron.

      Wittmann never met A Squadron 4th CLY. They were in a postion where Wittmann could not see them and with a hill between them. Tell me again how he engaged A Squadron.

      @wittmann:

      The fact the town was not captured and the Division and XXX Corps attack was called off suggests the losses in tanks were high enough to render any more offensive action out of the question until loses were made up.

      The town was taken by the British. They held it against the German counter attack and they then withdrew (without any German interference) later in the day.
      The reason Perch was called off was not because of Wittmann. You might want to check out all the fighting going on on June 13 and 14 in and around Villers and elsewhere on the front before making absurd claims a single Tiger stopped an entire Corps attack.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Wittmann stops the 7th Armour dead at Villers Bocage

      Typical spin.

      The full strength of 4th CLY is used (60 tanks) even though only 1 Squadron (c 20 tanks) was engaged.
      SS 101 numbers (45) are chipped away to make it sound as if only 4 Tigers were in action when in fact 5 were knocked out.
      The numbers claimed by Wittmann (20+ tanks) is demonstrably at least twice the number of tanks he even saw.
      Wittmann never went anywhere near  ‘1st’  (actually A) Squadron 4th CLY.

      I could go on but the whole piece is  completely riddled with errors.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Most overrated person in WWII

      @Tall:

      1.)I’ve read many�accounts by British Generals who had a very low opinion of “Monty’s” generalship.

      Much of US the venom seems to date from post war attempts to blacken Montgomery. Wartime views are much more positive.

      from D’Este:

      The First Army staff, already resentful of the change of command, is alleged to have been less than pleased to be under British command. Such resentments, and many seem to be of postwar creation, were not evident to James Gavin, the 82d Airborne commander, when he dined with Hodges and his staff several days later. “The staff spoke of Montgomery with amusement and respect. They obviously liked him and respected his professionalism.” For his part, Gavin was impressed with Montgomery as a soldier. “I took a liking to him that has not diminished with the years.”

      Bradley, A Soldier’s Story, p. 326:

      “For another four weeks it fell to the British to pin down superior enemy forces in that sector [Caen] while we maneuvered into position for the U.S. breakout. With the Allied world crying for blitzkrieg the first week after we landed, the British endured their passive role with patience and forbearing. . . . In setting the stage for our breakout the British were forced to endure the barbs of critics who shamed them for failing to push out vigorously as the Americans did. The intense rivalry that afterward strained relations between the British and American commands might be said to have sunk its psychological roots into that passive mission of the British on the beachhead”.

      more?

      W. D. Ellis and
      T. J. Cuningham, jr., Clarke of St.  Vith, The Sergeant’s General .

      http://www.amazon.com/Clarke-St-Vith-Sergeants-General/dp/0913228087/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1369084047&sr=1-1&keywords=Clarke+of+St.++Vith%2C+The+Sergeant's+General

      during the critical defense of St. Vith. Montgomery paid several visits to the 7th
      Armored front: “General Montgomery was impressive to me,” Clarke later said,
      “Very cool in battle"
      Before Montgornery’s order to withdraw, Clarke said, “lt
      looks like Custer`s last stand to me."

      and:

      J. D. Morelock, Generals of the
      Ardennes; American Leadership in the Battle ofthe Bulge 1993

      http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1410203956/ref=dp_bookdescription?ie=UTF8&n=283155

      " Morelock points out while Bradley and Patton were angry at Monty`s receiving command in the north, many lower level American commanders were delighted to have the British Field Marshal take charge of the confusing situation in the northern sector of the Bulge. Monty’s “timely assumption of command in the north,” writes Morelock, was welcomed by Hodges, Simpson (9th U.S. Army commander), and their subordinate commanders who were fighting desperately to stop the German drive. He comments, “it cannot be denied that Montgomery brought much needed order and discipline to a confused and chaotic situation.”

      You will find much more of the same if  you try.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Most overrated person in WWII

      @GoSanchez6:

      Read about the Normandy invasion. We built a fictional army in England around Patton for the reason I just described. The Germans were convinced the Allies would have their best general Patton lead the allied invasion at Calais. Get in the last word because I know you will but I am right on this one.

      If you had bothered to read the link I gave you in my last post

      http://www.hoover.org/publications/policy-review/article/106656

      then you would know that despite you claiming 'I am right on this one’ you are in fact, dead wrong.

      'The same applies to Patton’s role as commander of the fictional U.S. 1st Army Group in Kent, designed to create the impression that the invasion would occur at Calais rather than Normandy. In Yeide’s view, Farago’s assertion that the Germans concentrated on Patton as the general likely to command American forces in the invasion of France is mainly based on a misinterpretation of an entry in the German High Command’s war diary and on a routine Air War Academy paper entitled Invasionsgenerale. In fact, says Yeide, in a copy distributed in February 1944 Patton is “the only senior Allied general in Britain and the Mediterranean not profiled with a brief, one paragraph summary.” Bradley appears and so does Montgomery, but no Patton. Yeide does not rule out his inclusion from a later version now missing, but anyway, such papers were standard products with the all services, from which nothing much can be inferred.

      posted in World War II History
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      Lazarus
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