Submarine Defense Roll


  • 2017 '16 Customizer

    Anyone else think the sub defense roll of 1 is a bit much? I’ve declared a house rule that subs attack and defend on a roll of 2 or less. Same as all my previous versions of A&A. I do like the sneak attack ability for the defending sub(s) though, so that part is staying.



  • The defend on 1 roll makes them subpar to destroyers on defence which is compensated for their lower price.
    Subs attack and defend on a 2 makes them 2 powerfull in naval battles imo.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 '13 Moderator

    They are far too cheap at 6, as ShadowHawk says. Their ability to Convoy is a big advantage on the old games, where they cost 8.
    One defence is the only downside of the Sub. It must stay.



  • I don’t think the problem with subs is that they roll 1 on defense. The problem is that they are way too easy to kill IMO. One destroyer and a couple air craft having the ability to attack and take out sub(s) in a given sz has bothered me in G40.

    Instead of House Ruling subs defending at 2, look at destroyer(s) have to roll a detection dice for each sub in that sz. Set detection at 3 or less (50%) finds a sub and you can attack it. Roll 4 or more and that sub can submerge (and attempt to convoy later). For each additional dd you have in the attack you would add +1 to the detection dice.

    Example: 3 German subs sitting in sz 109. UK has 1 dd and two ftrs attacking sz 109 to clear it. The dd rolls 3 detection dice (one for each sub). It rolls 2,4 and 5. One of the subs are found (battle goes on as normal), but 2 subs are allowed to submerge (or stay to fight if they choose). If the UK didn’t clear the sz any surviving sub(s) can attempt to convoy sz 109. If you would have had two dds attacking then you get +1 to the detection dice so rolls of 4 or less would find subs. In the above example 2 subs would be found, and only one would have had the ability to submerge. If at any time during the battle the attacker loses all his attacking destroyers the defending sub(s) could submerge (can’t attack subs w/o a dd).

    Lets face it convoy zones around UK are limited and hard to hit because subs can’t survive long enough to do damage.  If you make it harder to hit subs then the cost should go up to 7 IPCs.


  • '15

    Subs defending at 2 seems like a game breaker to me.  At that price I couldn’t think of a reason for the US to buy anything else in the Pacific


  • '15

    @Nippon-koku:

    Subs defending at 2 seems like a game breaker to me.  At that price I couldn’t think of a reason for the US to buy anything else in the Pacific

    Well, you’d still want a few destroyers to potentially block and to kill Japanese subs. Otherwise, yeah, you’re right, 3-5 destroyers and as many subs as you could afford would be the way to go.



  • Subs defending at 2 would be godly under this ruleset. The defending-at-1 rule is necessary because of all the special rules that benefit subs. After all, they’re the only unit in the game that can submerge, that can’t be blocked without a specific type of enemy unit present (that isn’t worth purchasing at all except to combat subs), or that gets a chance to kill an enemy unit and prevent that unit from firing back - and to top all that off, they’re the cheapest ship you can buy.

    The only reason the destroyer is even a unit in this game is that there had to be something to counter the incredible power given to subs. If subs had to fight under the same rules as every other unit does, nobody would ever buy a destroyer.

    If there’s any naval unit in this game that needs a boost, it’s the cruiser. IPC for IPC subs are by far the most powerful naval units in the game, and it’s not even a close contest.



  • @WILD:

    Lets face it convoy zones around UK are limited and hard to hit because subs can’t survive long enough to do damage.  If you make it harder to hit subs then the cost should go up to 7 IPCs.

    If subs got to defend at 2, a price of 10-12 IPCs would be more appropriate.DDs cost 8 and haven’t any of the special rule benefits that subs have.

    People would still buy them at that price, although they’d be used a bit differently and more sparingly.


  • '15

    @teslas:

    @Nippon-koku:

    Subs defending at 2 seems like a game breaker to me.  At that price I couldn’t think of a reason for the US to buy anything else in the Pacific

    Well, you’d still want a few destroyers to potentially block and to kill Japanese subs. Otherwise, yeah, you’re right, 3-5 destroyers and as many subs as you could afford would be the way to go.

    Of course.  Hell, even Anzac could get in on the action.  If subs are defending at 2 you may have an argument for Anzac to spend all of it’s money on subs and try to disrupt the Japanese navy while America makes its way


  • 2017 '16 Customizer

    Very curious opinions & insights. If a player is spending all their money on subs….then they are not buying something else that they probably should. As far as a “game changer”? I think not, at least it hasn’t played out that way in my bunker.



  • @SubmersedElk:

    @WILD:

    Lets face it convoy zones around UK are limited and hard to hit because subs can’t survive long enough to do damage.  If you make it harder to hit subs then the cost should go up to 7 IPCs.

    If subs got to defend at 2, a price of 10-12 IPCs would be more appropriate.DDs cost 8 and haven’t any of the special rule benefits that subs have.

    People would still buy them at that price, although they’d be used a bit differently and more sparingly.

    Nah at a price of 8 they would be ok as they cannot hit air. For 10 or 12 cruisers will be better then subs. Or you just buy a figher with 3-4 and more range it will be better.

    Subs are not a main combat unit currenty they are cheap and disposable fodder units for attack not defence making them as powerfull on defence as on attack would just break them.
    They cannot hit air is a verry big advantage and not being able to attacked by air unless a destroyer is present also makes them pretty good. Add that to double convoy dice and that is worth more then the +1 on attack a destroyer has.


  • 2018 2017

    If a sub cost 8 and had a 2 attack and 2 defense…it would BE a destroyer.  Just because the little plastic molds look different is not what makes the pieces what they are; the rules do.

    the sub simply has too many advantages and is treated too differently to want to try to rebalance the piece.  it was not a change in destroyers (they used to cost 12 and 3/3, but rather a change in transports that made the sub change available (they fought as a sub does, instead of not at all).

    In fact, the balance between subs and destroyers and transports (and their prices) is one of the best evolutions of the 1940 Global game.


  • 2017 '16

    Here is an extract of a longer quote explaining a few issues on Subs vs DDs and planes.
    It also includes Sub unit with different features which make more streamlined interactions between these units.
    If you play on boardgame, I believe you will like these changes.
    Subs defense is less effective because it always remain 1, no surprise strike possible (same as Classic Subs) but on offense Sub keeps is @2 Surprise Strike in all situations.
    However, a few features increase Sub survivabilty, such as 1:1 blocking by Destroyer.

    That way, at 7 IPCs for a Submarine and not allowing Sub to hit each other, it is no more interesting as a cheap naval fodder.
    8 IPCs Destroyer will finally get is main role as naval fodder and still be the unit to protect other bigger warships and TPs against this revamped Sub.

    @Baron:

    Second rule: Sub’s A2 first strike, on a 1 Sub vs 1 DD, U-boats are better now than OOB and let the player feels each Sub have a better offensive capacity (in fact, on same IPC basis, 6 Subs A2fs vs 5 DDs D2 keep a similar combat odds as OOB 8 Subs Attacking @2 vs 6 Destroyers defending @2). Still the first strike ability increase the Submarine survivability because the defender cannot retaliate.

    Third rule: DD blocks on a 1:1 basis Stealth Move and Submerge for first round only. Now, a single DD blocker cannot freeze U-boats in Baltic Sea. An Axis player can move beyond first DD blocker and play a cat and mice game with an improved stealth move (or a less effective blocking capacity).
    Also, a many aircrafts and only 1 DD combined attack on many Subs defending @1 can no more result in a U-boats slaughter. Only 1 Sub would be trapped and unable to submerge. In addition, it would be a one shot attack since DD blocks only submerge for the first round. All this would increase the U-boat survivability.

    I want to let you know that, if near OOB cost structure is chosen, there is also a way to have simpler interaction between Destroyers, Submarines and planes balanced at these cost:
    Unit type
    Cost   Combat values
    Special abilities

    SUBMARINE
    7 IPCs A2fs* D1 M2
    Permanent A2 first strike *against all surface vessels only, including DDs.
    Cannot hit Submarine or Aircraft
    Submerge before combat (unless DD present) and Stealth Move (unless blocked by DD)
    Unsubmerged Subs can be hit by aircrafts even when DD not present.

    DESTROYER
    8 IPCs A2 D2 M2
    Block Sub’s Submerge (first round only) and Stealth move, both on a 1:1 basis.

    Submarines at 7 IPCs unable to be hit by Subs is less interesting as an all around naval fodder.
    Destroyer at 8 is much more a better naval fodder.
    And from same ipc basis cost ratio, it is similar to OOB.

    8 OOB Subs (C6) vs 6 OOB Destroyers
    A. survives: 87.6%D. survives: 11.7% No one survives: 0.8%

    8 Subs A2fs C7 vs 7 DDs A2 D2
    A. survives: 88.4%D. survives: 11.6% No one survives: 0%

    http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=&aFig=&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=8&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=&dBom=&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=6&dCru=&dCar=&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=

    http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=&aFig=&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=8&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=&dBom=&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=&dCru=&dCar=7&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=


  • 2017 '16

    @Maddog77:

    Very curious opinions & insights. If a player is spending all their money on subs….then they are not buying something else that they probably should. As far as a “game changer”? I think not, at least it hasn’t played out that way in my bunker.

    Submarine issue is more a matter of survivability than defense values.
    Also, with a few DDs (2 or 3) and a lot of Subs at 6 IPCs as fodders you get the best escorting fleet against other enemy fleet. Because Sub can be used as casualty against other Sub, you can afford to lose a lot of them before sinking a costlier Destroyer.

    6 IPCs for 1 hit is a powerful defensive capacity.



  • Hey…

    I may as well add a sub question here…

    You use your surprise attack subs as part of the battle, and then after surprise continue using your remaining sea/air units in the battle.
    Your attacker attacks and gets a few hits on you with no surprise sub attacks. Can you use a sub you used in your surprise attack as a HIT instead of removing one of your other sea/air units?
    Just if the sub is in the surprise it is then removed from the battle zone. So can you use a sub as a hit?

    Would be great to have an answer ( 2nd edition ).

    BH


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 '13 Moderator

    You can, yes. But not from an Air unit,'if  you did not have a Destroyer, with which to detect it. Of course, Naval units can always hit it, if it stayed to fight.



  • Thanks Witt.

    It came up during a strategy meeting our group had. I said yes of course you can, but then looked deeper into the situation and thought, there must be a consequences on a fall back using a surprise attack.

    But good to know an answer.

    BH


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