THE VANN 8D UNIT PROPOSAL


  • Disciplinary Group Banned

    Hi guys, I have given a lot of of thought on Young Grasshopper’s 8D proposal, and this is what I came up with.

    INF            C3/M1/A1/D2
    ART          C4/M1/A2/D2
    MECH          C4/M2/A1/D2
    TANK          C6/M2/A4/D4
    FIGHTER      C10/M4/A4/D5
    T-BOMBER    C11/M4/A4/D4
    S-BOMBER    C12/M6/A6/D2
    BATTLESHIP C20/M2/A6/A6
    CARRIER      C16/M2/A0/D3
    CRUISER    C12/M2/A5/D5
    DESTROYER C8/M2/A2/D2
    SUB          C6/M2/A2/D1


  • 2017 '16

    @Dauvio:

    Hi guys, I have given a lot of of thought on Young Grasshopper’s 8D proposal, and this is what I came up with.

    INF            C3/M1/A1/D2
    ART           C4/M1/A2/D2
    MECH          C4/M2/A1/D2
    TANK          C6/M2/A4/D4
    FIGHTER      C10/M4/A4/D5
    T-BOMBER    C11/M4/A4/D4
    S-BOMBER    C12/M6/A6/D2
    BATTLESHIP C20/M2/A6/A6
    CARRIER      C16/M2/A0/D3
    CRUISER     C12/M2/A5/D5
    DESTROYER C8/M2/A2/D2
    SUB           C6/M2/A2/D1

    INF            C3/M1/A1/D2
    ART           C4/M1/A2/D2
    MECH          C4/M2/A1/D2
    TANK          C6/M2/A4/D4
    FIGHTER      C10/M4/A4/D5
    T-BOMBER    C11/M4/A4/D4
    S-BOMBER    C12/M6/A6/D2
    BATTLESHIP C20/M2/A6/A6
    CARRIER      C16/M2/A0/D3
    CRUISER     C12/M2/A5/D5
    DESTROYER C8/M2/A2/D2
    SUB           C6/M2/A2/D1

    I bolded the difference between you and YG.
    That might be interesting to know why you prefered these values.
    For instance, DD does not defend as well as Carrier.
    I suggested D3 for both, YG kept A3 D3 for DD but D2 for Carrier.

    Here is YG’s complete D8s roster:

    Inf     A1-2 D2 strength 16, 200% or 32, 200%,
    MI      A1-2 D2 strength 9 or 112.5%, 18 or 225%
    Arty   A3 D2 strength 27 or 337.5%, 18 or 225%
    Tank  A4 D4 strength 16 or 200%
    AAA   A0 D1*


    Fighter      A4 D5 strength 5.76 or 72%
    TcBomber  A4-5 D4 strength 5.95 or 74.4%, 4.76 or 59.5%
    StBomber  A5 D1 strength 5 or 62.5%, 1 or 12.5%


    Submarine          A3 D2 strength 18.00 or 225.0%, 10.64 or 133.0%
    Destroyer          A3 D3 strength 6.75 or 84.4%
    Cruiser           A5 D5  strength 5.00 or 62.5%
    Carrier, 2 hits    A0 D2 strength 2.95
    Battleship, 2 hits A6 D6 strength 3.77


  • Disciplinary Group Banned

    This is based on the VANN FORMULAS. The cruiser, and battleship are better buys then the destroyer now. You still want to buy destroyers because of subs.
    The inf&art combo hits at 25% now, not 33%. Making the tank more viable.

    PROPOSE COMBOS
    S-Bomber&Tank. Tank is A5 now making the tank more viable.
    Cruiser&Battleship. The cruiser is A6/D6, and the Battleship is A7/D7.
    Mech&Inf, and Mech&Art. Inf, and Art can move two.

    Now for the sub verses destroyer problem.
    Now this is nonsense that one destroyer can detect ten subs.
    It should be one destroyer can only detect one sub.
    EXAMPLE: Six subs verses five destroyers. Only five of the six subs will be detected. That one sub that is not detected will have all its special abilities. Making the subs more viable


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    The Vann formulas are superseeded by Larry Marx Formula. Nobody bases or uses Van formulas anymore


  • Disciplinary Group Banned

    @Imperious:

    The Vann formulas are superseeded by Larry Marx Formula. Nobody bases or uses Van formulas anymore

    They are the same thing IL. Larry Marx got his formula based off from one of my tables that is from the VANN FORMULAS. So you don’t know what you’re talking about. I bet Larry Marx, and the Baron would agree with me on that about you.  :x :x :x



  • @Dauvio:

    @Imperious:

    The Vann formulas are superseeded by Larry Marx Formula. Nobody bases or uses Van formulas anymore

    They are the same thing IL. Larry Marx got his formula based off from one of my tables that is from the VANN FORMULAS. So you don’t know what you’re talking about. I bet Larry Marx, and the Baron would agree with me on that about you.  :x :x :x

    Vann, aren’t you basing this “VANN 8D UNIT PROPOSAL” off my 8D system?.. aren’t they the same thing? What if people started saying that your 8D PROPOSAL superseded mine?.. should I than get as upset as you are now?.. I think you’re putting way to much emphasis on what’s yours.


  • Sponsor 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer

    we have be using a 20D Formula for years.  With all the units that HGB came out with you almost have to. 1939 Variant


  • 2017 '16

    I rather called it Enigma formula, as the up-dated and expanded version, out of respect because without Vann tables and taunting there will be no Larrymarx decoding and only then I could expand to include units which were not there back in Classic time.
    I respect intellectual property and I give credit to Vann.
    He was maybe a bit too shy to share directly his formula in thinking that this would have break the game.

    But, as some others rightly put, A&A is now fortunately far beyond Don’s Infantry Push Mechanics. There is no more big stack staring at each other waiting to get the correct odds to win against the other.


  • 2017 '16

    @Dauvio:

    Now for the sub verses destroyer problem.
    Now this is nonsense that one destroyer can detect ten subs.
    It should be one destroyer can only detect one sub.
    EXAMPLE: Six subs verses five destroyers. Only five of the six subs will be detected. That one sub that is not detected will have all its special abilities. Making the subs more viable

    On this Submarine mechanics, I know Der Kuenstler has use it. IDK if this 1:1 rule is still used by him.
    One clear issue, is that your stack of Subs and DDs both offense and defense is constantly changing numbers each combat rounds. So, you have to recheck which side is above the other and how many Subs get a surprise roll. Then you have to roll them separately from other Subs.
    This special attention can dragged down the naval battle and slow the pace.

    On that one, it is clearly simpler to play OOB yes or no presence of enemy’s Destroyer to give Surprise strike.

    My own course of thinking about this evolved to simplify further and always give surprise strike but at the same strength as OOB Sub rolling regular attack.
    For instance, in YG’s thread, I suggested to always give Subs A2 first strike and D1 first strike.
    DD presence blocking only Sub’s Submerge and Stealth Move.


  • 2017 '16

    @Dauvio:

    This is based on the VANN FORMULAS. The cruiser, and battleship are better buys then the destroyer now. You still want to buy destroyers because of subs.
    The inf&art combo hits at 25% now, not 33%. Making the tank more viable.

    PROPOSE COMBOS
    S-Bomber&Tank. Tank is A5 now making the tank more viable.
    Cruiser&Battleship. The cruiser is A6/D6, and the Battleship is A7/D7.
    Mech&Inf, and Mech&Art. Inf, and Art can move two.

    I would like to see the table it gives based on Enigma formula.
    If you cannot produced it but only Vann formula for D8, just tell me which unit was the benchmark.
    Thanks,


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Vann, aren’t you basing this “VANN 8D UNIT PROPOSAL” off my 8D system?… aren’t they the same thing?

    LOL

    Larry-Marx considers 2 hit BB and subs first strike. Your didn’t. Remember?


  • Disciplinary Group Banned

    @Young:

    @Dauvio:

    @Imperious:

    The Vann formulas are superseeded by Larry Marx Formula. Nobody bases or uses Van formulas anymore

    They are the same thing IL. Larry Marx got his formula based off from one of my tables that is from the VANN FORMULAS. So you don’t know what you’re talking about. I bet Larry Marx, and the Baron would agree with me on that about you.  :x :x :x

    Vann, aren’t you basing this “VANN 8D UNIT PROPOSAL” off my 8D system?.. aren’t they the same thing? What if people started saying that your 8D PROPOSAL superseded mine?.. should I than get as upset as you are now?.. I think you’re putting way to much emphasis on what’s yours.

    With all do respect YG. You are basically saying if anyone says 8D, it’s your idea, IT"S NOT.


  • Disciplinary Group Banned

    Baron Munchhausen

    Have Larry Marx check out the ENIGMA FORMULA.

    Subs only gets a sneak attack in the first round.

    There isn’t a bench mark unit for 8D. It is a simple conversion from 6D to 8D.


  • Disciplinary Group Banned

    @Imperious:

    Larry-Marx considers 2 hit BB and subs first strike. Your didn’t. Remember?

    Basically you need a 8D battlecalc to figure that stuff out, without it it’s going to take you a very long time. 8D battlecalcs don’t exist, but however I can produce one.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    @Dauvio:

    @Young:

    @Dauvio:

    @Imperious:

    The Vann formulas are superseeded by Larry Marx Formula. Nobody bases or uses Van formulas anymore

    They are the same thing IL. Larry Marx got his formula based off from one of my tables that is from the VANN FORMULAS. So you don’t know what you’re talking about. I bet Larry Marx, and the Baron would agree with me on that about you.  :x :x :x

    Vann, aren’t you basing this “VANN 8D UNIT PROPOSAL” off my 8D system?.. aren’t they the same thing? What if people started saying that your 8D PROPOSAL superseded mine?.. should I than get as upset as you are now?.. I think you’re putting way to much emphasis on what’s yours.

    With all do respect YG. You are basically saying if anyone says 8D, it’s your idea, IT"S NOT.

    I beg to defer Vann he posted the D8 Mod first on site unless somebody else can come up with an old post showing D8 values.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    @R:

    we have be using a 20D Formula for years.  With all the units that HGB came out with you almost have to. 1939 Variant

    OH NO

    I don’t have time to test this yet !!!  😄 😄 😄 😄


  • 2017 '16

    @Baron:

    @Dauvio:

    Hi guys, I have given a lot of of thought on Young Grasshopper’s 8D proposal, and this is what I came up with.

    INF            C3/M1/A1/D2
    ART           C4/M1/A2/D2
    MECH          C4/M2/A1/D2
    TANK          C6/M2/A4/D4
    FIGHTER      C10/M4/A4/D5
    T-BOMBER    C11/M4/A4/D4
    S-BOMBER    C12/M6/A6/D2
    BATTLESHIP C20/M2/A6/A6
    CARRIER      C16/M2/A0/D3
    CRUISER     C12/M2/A5/D5
    DESTROYER C8/M2/A2/D2
    SUB           C6/M2/A2/D1

    INF            C3/M1/A1/D2
    ART           C4/M1/A2/D2 18.0 powerhit
    MECH          C4/M2/A1/D2
    TANK          C6/M2/A4/D4
    FIGHTER      C10/M4/A4/D5
    T-BOMBER    C11/M4/A4/D4
    S-BOMBER    C12/M6/A6/D2 6.00 power
    hit
    BATTLESHIP C20/M2/A6/A6
    CARRIER      C16/M2/A0/D3 4.42 powerhit
    CRUISER     C12/M2/A5/D5
    **DESTROYER C8/M2/A2/D2  4.5 power
    hit
    SUB           C6/M2/A2/D1**  8.00 or first strike: 12.00, 4.00 or first strike: 5.32   power*hit

    I bolded the difference between you and YG.
    That might be interesting to know why you prefered these values.
    For instance, DD does not defend as well as Carrier.
    I suggested D3 for both, YG kept A3 D3 for DD but D2 for Carrier.

    Here is YG’s complete D8s roster:

    Inf     A1-2 D2 strength 16.0 or 32.0
    MI      A1-2 D2 strength 9.0 or 18.0
    Arty   A3 D2 strength 27.0, 18.0
    Tank  A4 D4 strength 16.0
    AAA   A0 D1*


    Fighter      A4 D5 strength 5.76, 7.20
    TcBomber  A4-5 D4 strength 5.95 , 4.76
    StBomber  A5 D1 strength 5.00 , 1.00


    Submarine   A3 D2 strength 12.00, first strike 18.00, 8.00 first strike 10.64
    Destroyer    A3 D3 strength 6.75
    Cruiser        A5 D5  strength 5.00
    Carrier, 2 hits A0 D2 strength 2.95
    Battleship    A6 D6 strength 3.77

    Here is the value based on 12 IPCs Cruiser put at 5.00 as the benchmark for YG numbers.
    Formula is 144*power/Cost^2.
    *2.618034 for 2 hits Battleship or Carrier

    If Battleship was A7 D7 C20, you would get a strength factor of 6.60 powerhit.
    If Destroyer is A2 D2 C8, you would get 4.5 power
    hit.
    2 hits Carrier A0 D3 C16 is 0.00, 4.42 power*hit

    Comparison:
    Infantry  A1-2 D2 M1 C3: 16.00 / 32.00
    Mech Inf A1-2 D2 M2 C4: 9.00 / 18.00
    Artillery  A2    D2 M1 C4 : 18.00 / 18.00
    Artillery  A3    D3 M1 C4 : 27.00 / 27.00
    Tank      A4    D4 M2 C6 : 16.00 / 16.00

    YG Arty+Inf combos: Attack: 29.39 Defense: 23.51
    Vann Arty+Inf combos: Attack/Defense: 23.51

    YG Arty+MechInf combos: Attack: 22.5  Defense: 18.00
    Vann Arty+MechInf combos: Attack/Defense: 18.00

    YG’s StBomber A5 D1 C12: 5.00 , 1.00
    Vann’s StBomber A6 D1 C12 6.00, 1.00

    YG’s Destroyer A3 D3 C8: Attack/Defense: 6.75
    Vann’s Destroyer A2 D2 C8: 4.5

    YG’s Submarine A3 D2 strength 12.00 first strike 18.00, 8.00 first strike 10.64
    Vann’s 8.00 or first strike: 12.00, 4.00 or first strike: 5.32   power*hit

    YG’s 2 hits Carrier A0 D2 strength 2.95
    Vann’s 2 hits Carrier A0 D3  strength 4.42 power*hit

    YG’s Carrier+ 2 Fgs A8 D12 C36 strength: attack 4.65 defense 5.33
    Vann’s Carrier+2 Fgs A8 D13 C36 strength: attack 4.65 defense 5.78



  • @Dauvio:

    @Young:

    @Dauvio:

    @Imperious:

    The Vann formulas are superseeded by Larry Marx Formula. Nobody bases or uses Van formulas anymore

    They are the same thing IL. Larry Marx got his formula based off from one of my tables that is from the VANN FORMULAS. So you don’t know what you’re talking about. I bet Larry Marx, and the Baron would agree with me on that about you.  :x :x :x

    Vann, aren’t you basing this “VANN 8D UNIT PROPOSAL” off my 8D system?.. aren’t they the same thing? What if people started saying that your 8D PROPOSAL superseded mine?.. should I than get as upset as you are now?.. I think you’re putting way to much emphasis on what’s yours.

    With all do respect YG. You are basically saying if anyone says 8D, it’s your idea, IT"S NOT.

    Not at all, I’ve never had a problem with others building off my ideas… I was simply using this thread and your reaction to Imperious Leader to show that you do.


  • 2017

    You all are not Grand Masters and may never be unless you start using the Ichabod Equations…unfortunately I’m not so sure the community is worthy of it!


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    @Ichabod:

    You all are not Grand Masters and may never be unless you start using the Ichabod Equations…unfortunately I’m not so sure the community is worth of it!

    I’m dieing to see them. I’ll probably agree with them all !  😄


  • 2017 '16

    @Young:

    @Dauvio:

    @Young:

    @Dauvio:

    @Imperious:

    The Vann formulas are superseeded by Larry Marx Formula. Nobody bases or uses Van formulas anymore

    They are the same thing IL. Larry Marx got his formula based off from one of my tables that is from the VANN FORMULAS. So you don’t know what you’re talking about. I bet Larry Marx, and the Baron would agree with me on that about you.  :x :x :x

    Vann, aren’t you basing this “VANN 8D UNIT PROPOSAL” off my 8D system?.. aren’t they the same thing? What if people started saying that your 8D PROPOSAL superseded mine?.. should I than get as upset as you are now?.. I think you’re putting way to much emphasis on what’s yours.

    With all do respect YG. You are basically saying if anyone says 8D, it’s your idea, IT"S NOT.

    Not at all, I’ve never had a problem with others building off my ideas… I was simply using this thread and your reaction to Imperious Leader to show that you do.

    The tone and aim of IL is more likely to deny all relevance to Vann and his formula.
    It is unfair to deny any contribution on his part in Enigma formula of A&A.


  • 2017 '16

    Here is the comparative values based on 12 IPCs Cruiser put at 5.00 as the benchmark for YG numbers.
    Formula is 144*power/Cost^2.
    *2.618034 for 2 hits Battleship or Carrier

    If Battleship was A7 D7 C20, you would get a strength factor of 6.60 power*hit.
    If Destroyer is A2 D2 C8, you would get 4.50
    2 hits Carrier A0 D3 C16 is 0.00, 4.42

    Comparison:
    YG’s Arty   A3 D2 strength 27.0, 18.0
    Vann’s Arty A2 D2 : 18.0

    YG Arty+Inf combos: Attack: 29.39 Defense: 23.51
    Vann Arty+Inf combos: Attack/Defense: 23.51

    YG Arty+MechInf combos: Attack: 22.5  Defense: 18.00
    Vann Arty+MechInf combos: Attack/Defense: 18.00

    YG’s StBomber A5 D1 C12: 5.00 , 1.00
    Vann’s StBomber A6 D1 C12 6.00, 1.00

    YG’s Destroyer A3 D3 C8: Attack/Defense: 6.75
    Vann’s Destroyer A2 D2 C8: 4.50

    YG’s Submarine A3 D2 strength 12.00 first strike 18.00, 8.00 first strike 10.64
    Vann’s 8.00 or first strike: 12.00, 4.00 or first strike: 5.32

    YG’s 2 hits Carrier A0 D2 strength 2.95
    Vann’s 2 hits Carrier A0 D3  strength 4.42

    YG’s Carrier+ 2 Fgs A8 D12 C36 strength: attack 4.65 defense approx.  5.33
    Vann’s Carrier+2 Fgs A8 D13 C36 strength: attack 4.65 defense approx. 5.78


    First thing I can see is that Subs - Destroyer - Cruiser - Battleship - Full Carrier get a different strength progression:

    YG’s attack:     12.00 _____ 6.75 ______ 5.00 ______ 5.65  ____ 4.65
    Vann’s attack:    8.00 _____ 4.50 ______ 5.00 ______ 5.65 ____ 4.65

    YG’s is following a clean decreasing order of strength which worked accordingly to OOB decrease (except for Cruisers which was broken).

    Vann’s is following a weaker path but Destroyer 4.50 is now under the strength of Cruiser 5.00.

    Why did you make this choice Vann?

    Following the increasing in strength from DD to Cruiser then Battleship.

    That way, the costlier the unit, the better you can afford to your fleet.

    Second, on Subs, both are proportionate to DDs. A3 D2 Sub meet A3 D3 DD /  A2 D1 Sub meet A2 D2 DD
    Any particular reason to have chosen this value?
    Is it only because Destroyer is at a lower combat value?

    Also, you choose to keep the high attack value of 6.00 to StBomber instead of the lower 5.00 which make it even with Cruiser.

    Is it only because you need to follow BB value (Attack 6)?
    YG’s nerfed Bombers because of Dark Sky, IMO.

    However you did not give defense 6 to Fighter but only 5, and this will nerfed a lot aircraft defense against bombers:
    Fighter      A4 D5 strength 5.76, 7.20

    Any reason?

    Third, Vann’s Full Carrier get a better defense factor: 5.78 which is slightly above Cruiser than YG’s 5.33.
    To me, it seems OK, but did you boost Full Carrier defense because it is linked to Fighter nerfing?

    Finally, it seems that keeping Artillery moving 1 as low as Inf and MechInf make Tank (16.0) much more competitive particularly both offense and defense compared to MI (18.0):
    YG Arty+Inf combos: Attack: 29.39 Defense: 23.51
    Vann Arty+Inf combos: Attack/Defense: 23.51

    YG Arty+MechInf combos: Attack: 22.5  Defense: 18.00
    Vann Arty+MechInf combos: Attack/Defense: 18.00

    Tank: Attack/Defense: 16.00
    MInf: Attack/Defense: 9.00 / 18.00

    Don’t you think it might make Tank too much interesting on offense when paired to MI?

    Tank+MI A5 D6 C10, 2 hits:  Attack/Defense: 14.40 / 17.28


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    YA !!! The VANN DAM FORMULAS are back !!!


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Thats more like a no. The larry marx formula is back. The original


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    @Imperious:

    Thats more like a no. The larry marx formula is back. The original

    I know. Just being sarcastic.


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