THE VANN 8D UNIT PROPOSAL

Hi guys, I have given a lot of of thought on Young Grasshopper’s 8D proposal, and this is what I came up with.
INF C3/M1/A1/D2
ART C4/M1/A2/D2
MECH C4/M2/A1/D2
TANK C6/M2/A4/D4
FIGHTER C10/M4/A4/D5
TBOMBER C11/M4/A4/D4
SBOMBER C12/M6/A6/D2
BATTLESHIP C20/M2/A6/A6
CARRIER C16/M2/A0/D3
CRUISER C12/M2/A5/D5
DESTROYER C8/M2/A2/D2
SUB C6/M2/A2/D1

@Dauvio:
Hi guys, I have given a lot of of thought on Young Grasshopper’s 8D proposal, and this is what I came up with.
INF C3/M1/A1/D2
ART C4/M1/A2/D2
MECH C4/M2/A1/D2
TANK C6/M2/A4/D4
FIGHTER C10/M4/A4/D5
TBOMBER C11/M4/A4/D4
SBOMBER C12/M6/A6/D2
BATTLESHIP C20/M2/A6/A6
CARRIER C16/M2/A0/D3
CRUISER C12/M2/A5/D5
DESTROYER C8/M2/A2/D2
SUB C6/M2/A2/D1INF C3/M1/A1/D2
ART C4/M1/A2/D2
MECH C4/M2/A1/D2
TANK C6/M2/A4/D4
FIGHTER C10/M4/A4/D5
TBOMBER C11/M4/A4/D4
SBOMBER C12/M6/A6/D2
BATTLESHIP C20/M2/A6/A6
CARRIER C16/M2/A0/D3
CRUISER C12/M2/A5/D5
DESTROYER C8/M2/A2/D2
SUB C6/M2/A2/D1I bolded the difference between you and YG.
That might be interesting to know why you prefered these values.
For instance, DD does not defend as well as Carrier.
I suggested D3 for both, YG kept A3 D3 for DD but D2 for Carrier.Here is YG’s complete D8s roster:
Inf A12 D2 strength 16, 200% or 32, 200%,
MI A12 D2 strength 9 or 112.5%, 18 or 225%
Arty A3 D2 strength 27 or 337.5%, 18 or 225%
Tank A4 D4 strength 16 or 200%
AAA A0 D1*
Fighter A4 D5 strength 5.76 or 72%
TcBomber A45 D4 strength 5.95 or 74.4%, 4.76 or 59.5%
StBomber A5 D1 strength 5 or 62.5%, 1 or 12.5%
Submarine A3 D2 strength 18.00 or 225.0%, 10.64 or 133.0%
Destroyer A3 D3 strength 6.75 or 84.4%
Cruiser A5 D5 strength 5.00 or 62.5%
Carrier, 2 hits A0 D2 strength 2.95
Battleship, 2 hits A6 D6 strength 3.77

This is based on the VANN FORMULAS. The cruiser, and battleship are better buys then the destroyer now. You still want to buy destroyers because of subs.
The inf&art combo hits at 25% now, not 33%. Making the tank more viable.PROPOSE COMBOS
SBomber&Tank. Tank is A5 now making the tank more viable.
Cruiser&Battleship. The cruiser is A6/D6, and the Battleship is A7/D7.
Mech&Inf, and Mech&Art. Inf, and Art can move two.Now for the sub verses destroyer problem.
Now this is nonsense that one destroyer can detect ten subs.
It should be one destroyer can only detect one sub.
EXAMPLE: Six subs verses five destroyers. Only five of the six subs will be detected. That one sub that is not detected will have all its special abilities. Making the subs more viable

The Vann formulas are superseeded by Larry Marx Formula. Nobody bases or uses Van formulas anymore

@Imperious:
The Vann formulas are superseeded by Larry Marx Formula. Nobody bases or uses Van formulas anymore
They are the same thing IL. Larry Marx got his formula based off from one of my tables that is from the VANN FORMULAS. So you don’t know what you’re talking about. I bet Larry Marx, and the Baron would agree with me on that about you. :x :x :x

@Dauvio:
@Imperious:
The Vann formulas are superseeded by Larry Marx Formula. Nobody bases or uses Van formulas anymore
They are the same thing IL. Larry Marx got his formula based off from one of my tables that is from the VANN FORMULAS. So you don’t know what you’re talking about. I bet Larry Marx, and the Baron would agree with me on that about you. :x :x :x
Vann, aren’t you basing this “VANN 8D UNIT PROPOSAL” off my 8D system?.. aren’t they the same thing? What if people started saying that your 8D PROPOSAL superseded mine?.. should I than get as upset as you are now?.. I think you’re putting way to much emphasis on what’s yours.

we have be using a 20D Formula for years. With all the units that HGB came out with you almost have to. 1939 Variant

I rather called it Enigma formula, as the updated and expanded version, out of respect because without Vann tables and taunting there will be no Larrymarx decoding and only then I could expand to include units which were not there back in Classic time.
I respect intellectual property and I give credit to Vann.
He was maybe a bit too shy to share directly his formula in thinking that this would have break the game.But, as some others rightly put, A&A is now fortunately far beyond Don’s Infantry Push Mechanics. There is no more big stack staring at each other waiting to get the correct odds to win against the other.

@Dauvio:
Now for the sub verses destroyer problem.
Now this is nonsense that one destroyer can detect ten subs.
It should be one destroyer can only detect one sub.
EXAMPLE: Six subs verses five destroyers. Only five of the six subs will be detected. That one sub that is not detected will have all its special abilities. Making the subs more viableOn this Submarine mechanics, I know Der Kuenstler has use it. IDK if this 1:1 rule is still used by him.
One clear issue, is that your stack of Subs and DDs both offense and defense is constantly changing numbers each combat rounds. So, you have to recheck which side is above the other and how many Subs get a surprise roll. Then you have to roll them separately from other Subs.
This special attention can dragged down the naval battle and slow the pace.On that one, it is clearly simpler to play OOB yes or no presence of enemy’s Destroyer to give Surprise strike.
My own course of thinking about this evolved to simplify further and always give surprise strike but at the same strength as OOB Sub rolling regular attack.
For instance, in YG’s thread, I suggested to always give Subs A2 first strike and D1 first strike.
DD presence blocking only Sub’s Submerge and Stealth Move.

@Dauvio:
This is based on the VANN FORMULAS. The cruiser, and battleship are better buys then the destroyer now. You still want to buy destroyers because of subs.
The inf&art combo hits at 25% now, not 33%. Making the tank more viable.PROPOSE COMBOS
SBomber&Tank. Tank is A5 now making the tank more viable.
Cruiser&Battleship. The cruiser is A6/D6, and the Battleship is A7/D7.
Mech&Inf, and Mech&Art. Inf, and Art can move two.I would like to see the table it gives based on Enigma formula.
If you cannot produced it but only Vann formula for D8, just tell me which unit was the benchmark.
Thanks,

Vann, aren’t you basing this “VANN 8D UNIT PROPOSAL” off my 8D system?… aren’t they the same thing?
LOL
LarryMarx considers 2 hit BB and subs first strike. Your didn’t. Remember?

@Young:
@Dauvio:
@Imperious:
The Vann formulas are superseeded by Larry Marx Formula. Nobody bases or uses Van formulas anymore
They are the same thing IL. Larry Marx got his formula based off from one of my tables that is from the VANN FORMULAS. So you don’t know what you’re talking about. I bet Larry Marx, and the Baron would agree with me on that about you. :x :x :x
Vann, aren’t you basing this “VANN 8D UNIT PROPOSAL” off my 8D system?.. aren’t they the same thing? What if people started saying that your 8D PROPOSAL superseded mine?.. should I than get as upset as you are now?.. I think you’re putting way to much emphasis on what’s yours.
With all do respect YG. You are basically saying if anyone says 8D, it’s your idea, IT"S NOT.

Baron Munchhausen
Have Larry Marx check out the ENIGMA FORMULA.
Subs only gets a sneak attack in the first round.
There isn’t a bench mark unit for 8D. It is a simple conversion from 6D to 8D.

@Imperious:
LarryMarx considers 2 hit BB and subs first strike. Your didn’t. Remember?
Basically you need a 8D battlecalc to figure that stuff out, without it it’s going to take you a very long time. 8D battlecalcs don’t exist, but however I can produce one.

@Dauvio:
@Young:
@Dauvio:
@Imperious:
The Vann formulas are superseeded by Larry Marx Formula. Nobody bases or uses Van formulas anymore
They are the same thing IL. Larry Marx got his formula based off from one of my tables that is from the VANN FORMULAS. So you don’t know what you’re talking about. I bet Larry Marx, and the Baron would agree with me on that about you. :x :x :x
Vann, aren’t you basing this “VANN 8D UNIT PROPOSAL” off my 8D system?.. aren’t they the same thing? What if people started saying that your 8D PROPOSAL superseded mine?.. should I than get as upset as you are now?.. I think you’re putting way to much emphasis on what’s yours.
With all do respect YG. You are basically saying if anyone says 8D, it’s your idea, IT"S NOT.
I beg to defer Vann he posted the D8 Mod first on site unless somebody else can come up with an old post showing D8 values.

@R:
we have be using a 20D Formula for years. With all the units that HGB came out with you almost have to. 1939 Variant
OH NO
I don’t have time to test this yet !!!

@Baron:
@Dauvio:
Hi guys, I have given a lot of of thought on Young Grasshopper’s 8D proposal, and this is what I came up with.
INF C3/M1/A1/D2
ART C4/M1/A2/D2
MECH C4/M2/A1/D2
TANK C6/M2/A4/D4
FIGHTER C10/M4/A4/D5
TBOMBER C11/M4/A4/D4
SBOMBER C12/M6/A6/D2
BATTLESHIP C20/M2/A6/A6
CARRIER C16/M2/A0/D3
CRUISER C12/M2/A5/D5
DESTROYER C8/M2/A2/D2
SUB C6/M2/A2/D1INF C3/M1/A1/D2
ART C4/M1/A2/D2 18.0 powerhit
MECH C4/M2/A1/D2
TANK C6/M2/A4/D4
FIGHTER C10/M4/A4/D5
TBOMBER C11/M4/A4/D4
SBOMBER C12/M6/A6/D2 6.00 powerhit
BATTLESHIP C20/M2/A6/A6
CARRIER C16/M2/A0/D3 4.42 powerhit
CRUISER C12/M2/A5/D5
**DESTROYER C8/M2/A2/D2 4.5 powerhit
SUB C6/M2/A2/D1** 8.00 or first strike: 12.00, 4.00 or first strike: 5.32 power*hitI bolded the difference between you and YG.
That might be interesting to know why you prefered these values.
For instance, DD does not defend as well as Carrier.
I suggested D3 for both, YG kept A3 D3 for DD but D2 for Carrier.Here is YG’s complete D8s roster:
Inf A12 D2 strength 16.0 or 32.0
MI A12 D2 strength 9.0 or 18.0
Arty A3 D2 strength 27.0, 18.0
Tank A4 D4 strength 16.0
AAA A0 D1*
Fighter A4 D5 strength 5.76, 7.20
TcBomber A45 D4 strength 5.95 , 4.76
StBomber A5 D1 strength 5.00 , 1.00
Submarine A3 D2 strength 12.00, first strike 18.00, 8.00 first strike 10.64
Destroyer A3 D3 strength 6.75
Cruiser A5 D5 strength 5.00
Carrier, 2 hits A0 D2 strength 2.95
Battleship A6 D6 strength 3.77Here is the value based on 12 IPCs Cruiser put at 5.00 as the benchmark for YG numbers.
Formula is 144*power/Cost^2.
*2.618034 for 2 hits Battleship or CarrierIf Battleship was A7 D7 C20, you would get a strength factor of 6.60 powerhit.
If Destroyer is A2 D2 C8, you would get 4.5 powerhit.
2 hits Carrier A0 D3 C16 is 0.00, 4.42 power*hitComparison:
Infantry A12 D2 M1 C3: 16.00 / 32.00
Mech Inf A12 D2 M2 C4: 9.00 / 18.00
Artillery A2 D2 M1 C4 : 18.00 / 18.00
Artillery A3 D3 M1 C4 : 27.00 / 27.00
Tank A4 D4 M2 C6 : 16.00 / 16.00YG Arty+Inf combos: Attack: 29.39 Defense: 23.51
Vann Arty+Inf combos: Attack/Defense: 23.51YG Arty+MechInf combos: Attack: 22.5 Defense: 18.00
Vann Arty+MechInf combos: Attack/Defense: 18.00YG’s StBomber A5 D1 C12: 5.00 , 1.00
Vann’s StBomber A6 D1 C12 6.00, 1.00YG’s Destroyer A3 D3 C8: Attack/Defense: 6.75
Vann’s Destroyer A2 D2 C8: 4.5YG’s Submarine A3 D2 strength 12.00 first strike 18.00, 8.00 first strike 10.64
Vann’s 8.00 or first strike: 12.00, 4.00 or first strike: 5.32 power*hitYG’s 2 hits Carrier A0 D2 strength 2.95
Vann’s 2 hits Carrier A0 D3 strength 4.42 power*hitYG’s Carrier+ 2 Fgs A8 D12 C36 strength: attack 4.65 defense 5.33
Vann’s Carrier+2 Fgs A8 D13 C36 strength: attack 4.65 defense 5.78

@Dauvio:
@Young:
@Dauvio:
@Imperious:
The Vann formulas are superseeded by Larry Marx Formula. Nobody bases or uses Van formulas anymore
They are the same thing IL. Larry Marx got his formula based off from one of my tables that is from the VANN FORMULAS. So you don’t know what you’re talking about. I bet Larry Marx, and the Baron would agree with me on that about you. :x :x :x
Vann, aren’t you basing this “VANN 8D UNIT PROPOSAL” off my 8D system?.. aren’t they the same thing? What if people started saying that your 8D PROPOSAL superseded mine?.. should I than get as upset as you are now?.. I think you’re putting way to much emphasis on what’s yours.
With all do respect YG. You are basically saying if anyone says 8D, it’s your idea, IT"S NOT.
Not at all, I’ve never had a problem with others building off my ideas… I was simply using this thread and your reaction to Imperious Leader to show that you do.

You all are not Grand Masters and may never be unless you start using the Ichabod Equations…unfortunately I’m not so sure the community is worthy of it!

You all are not Grand Masters and may never be unless you start using the Ichabod Equations…unfortunately I’m not so sure the community is worth of it!
I’m dieing to see them. I’ll probably agree with them all !

@Young:
@Dauvio:
@Young:
@Dauvio:
@Imperious:
The Vann formulas are superseeded by Larry Marx Formula. Nobody bases or uses Van formulas anymore
They are the same thing IL. Larry Marx got his formula based off from one of my tables that is from the VANN FORMULAS. So you don’t know what you’re talking about. I bet Larry Marx, and the Baron would agree with me on that about you. :x :x :x
Vann, aren’t you basing this “VANN 8D UNIT PROPOSAL” off my 8D system?.. aren’t they the same thing? What if people started saying that your 8D PROPOSAL superseded mine?.. should I than get as upset as you are now?.. I think you’re putting way to much emphasis on what’s yours.
With all do respect YG. You are basically saying if anyone says 8D, it’s your idea, IT"S NOT.
Not at all, I’ve never had a problem with others building off my ideas… I was simply using this thread and your reaction to Imperious Leader to show that you do.
The tone and aim of IL is more likely to deny all relevance to Vann and his formula.
It is unfair to deny any contribution on his part in Enigma formula of A&A.

Here is the comparative values based on 12 IPCs Cruiser put at 5.00 as the benchmark for YG numbers.
Formula is 144*power/Cost^2.
*2.618034 for 2 hits Battleship or CarrierIf Battleship was A7 D7 C20, you would get a strength factor of 6.60 power*hit.
If Destroyer is A2 D2 C8, you would get 4.50
2 hits Carrier A0 D3 C16 is 0.00, 4.42Comparison:
YG’s Arty A3 D2 strength 27.0, 18.0
Vann’s Arty A2 D2 : 18.0YG Arty+Inf combos: Attack: 29.39 Defense: 23.51
Vann Arty+Inf combos: Attack/Defense: 23.51YG Arty+MechInf combos: Attack: 22.5 Defense: 18.00
Vann Arty+MechInf combos: Attack/Defense: 18.00YG’s StBomber A5 D1 C12: 5.00 , 1.00
Vann’s StBomber A6 D1 C12 6.00, 1.00YG’s Destroyer A3 D3 C8: Attack/Defense: 6.75
Vann’s Destroyer A2 D2 C8: 4.50YG’s Submarine A3 D2 strength 12.00 first strike 18.00, 8.00 first strike 10.64
Vann’s 8.00 or first strike: 12.00, 4.00 or first strike: 5.32YG’s 2 hits Carrier A0 D2 strength 2.95
Vann’s 2 hits Carrier A0 D3 strength 4.42YG’s Carrier+ 2 Fgs A8 D12 C36 strength: attack 4.65 defense approx. 5.33
Vann’s Carrier+2 Fgs A8 D13 C36 strength: attack 4.65 defense approx. 5.78
First thing I can see is that Subs  Destroyer  Cruiser  Battleship  Full Carrier get a different strength progression:
YG’s attack: 12.00 _____ 6.75 ______ 5.00 ______ 5.65 ____ 4.65
Vann’s attack: 8.00 _____ 4.50 ______ 5.00 ______ 5.65 ____ 4.65YG’s is following a clean decreasing order of strength which worked accordingly to OOB decrease (except for Cruisers which was broken).
Vann’s is following a weaker path but Destroyer 4.50 is now under the strength of Cruiser 5.00.
Why did you make this choice Vann?
Following the increasing in strength from DD to Cruiser then Battleship.
That way, the costlier the unit, the better you can afford to your fleet.
Second, on Subs, both are proportionate to DDs. A3 D2 Sub meet A3 D3 DD / A2 D1 Sub meet A2 D2 DD
Any particular reason to have chosen this value?
Is it only because Destroyer is at a lower combat value?Also, you choose to keep the high attack value of 6.00 to StBomber instead of the lower 5.00 which make it even with Cruiser.
Is it only because you need to follow BB value (Attack 6)?
YG’s nerfed Bombers because of Dark Sky, IMO.However you did not give defense 6 to Fighter but only 5, and this will nerfed a lot aircraft defense against bombers:
Fighter A4 D5 strength 5.76, 7.20Any reason?
Third, Vann’s Full Carrier get a better defense factor: 5.78 which is slightly above Cruiser than YG’s 5.33.
To me, it seems OK, but did you boost Full Carrier defense because it is linked to Fighter nerfing?Finally, it seems that keeping Artillery moving 1 as low as Inf and MechInf make Tank (16.0) much more competitive particularly both offense and defense compared to MI (18.0):
YG Arty+Inf combos: Attack: 29.39 Defense: 23.51
Vann Arty+Inf combos: Attack/Defense: 23.51YG Arty+MechInf combos: Attack: 22.5 Defense: 18.00
Vann Arty+MechInf combos: Attack/Defense: 18.00Tank: Attack/Defense: 16.00
MInf: Attack/Defense: 9.00 / 18.00Don’t you think it might make Tank too much interesting on offense when paired to MI?
Tank+MI A5 D6 C10, 2 hits: Attack/Defense: 14.40 / 17.28

YA !!! The VANN DAM FORMULAS are back !!!

Thats more like a no. The larry marx formula is back. The original

@Imperious:
Thats more like a no. The larry marx formula is back. The original
I know. Just being sarcastic.