I have a problem with the balance and what happens when the Allies have bad roll

  • 2024 '22 '21 '19 '15 '14

    I posted a bunch of savegames in the AI development thread, showing a couple different approaches with some ideas on how to get the edge.

    Let us know how the game goes against your buddy. We’ll be pulling for you dude  :-D

  • TripleA

    @craykirk - Glad the new Hard AI is giving you a challenge. I don’t read these forums much so if you have specific feedback on the Hard AI then I’d recommend posting over at the TripleA dev forums: triplea.sourceforge.net/mywiki/Forum

    The naval priorities need some work still as the AI will often end up getting its ships stuck in various places and doesn’t always do a good job of defending its transports. I’m currently working on the air AI in order to minimize the number of times the AI leaves planes in undefended locations.

    If you or anyone is interested in actually assisting with the AI development just let me know and I can give you an overview of how to get started.


  • @redrum:

    If you or anyone is interested in actually assisting with the AI development just let me know and I can give you an overview of how to get started.

    Welcome to the forum, redrum, and thanks a lot for your efforts to improve the AI in TripleA.  :-)

    Can you please be a bit more specific on “assisting with the AI development”.
    Do you need Java programming skills or do you need just testers?

    I will open a new thread about this, as this important topic may get lost here…

    It would be great if you could comment on this here:
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=35371.0

  • '17 '16 '15 '14

    I’m a software developer by employment, so I could probably look at a few things.  One thing I thought about was creating some unique personality modules by map, packaging them in the zip file with the map (same format as a jar) and using Spring to inject the code so it would be used by the engine.  This way, any map specific AI could be kept with that map.  IJN could have some logic to prevent the route finding from getting stuck dealing with the canal (it appears this is what happens) and even paying attention to the islands when threatened.

    Or even some standard openings in the map xml similar to chess programs that have standard openings.

  • TripleA

    @craykirk - I’ll add more info around the Hard AI development in the thread P@nther created so not to derail this thread. To address your specific point, I plan to do something similar to what you described though most likely just have an AI XML file with things such as openings, territory values, unit values, etc. Essentially a way for map makers to give specific guidance on their map for the AI. I have it on the list of things TODO in the main AI development thread here (- Add per map XML AI configuration): tripleadev.1671093.n2.nabble.com/AI-Development-Discussion-tp7585227.html

  • '17 '16 '15 '14

    Boo…  Game fell through as he wasn’t feeling well.  I would like to get good enough that I can beat the AI however I don’t want to just mimic the save games that I’ve downloaded.  Map awareness and unit counters are one thing I really need to understand better.

    It’s just a lot more fun to play vs people than the computer.  I just want to get good enough to get my friends interested in the game instead of thinking the way I did.  They tell me they’ve tried everything and the Axis are overpowered.

    I understand how long software development can take, putting in changes, making sure nothing else is broken, etc.  As soon as you start assigning new priorities to different units and territories, it can upset the balance of how the land AI is currently working.

  • 2024 '22 '21 '19 '15 '14

    The main difference between v5 and Revised is the amount of time it takes for Allies to do anything meaningful. With UK you’re looking at either fighters or tanks for a while. Basically it takes three rounds minimum before you can move out safely.

    Often times I like to buy 3 tanks in India with UK and save 13 ipcs for the second round. This gives you a chance to see what Japan does and where Germany puts their air. In old boards G based air out of France, but in v5 NW Europe or Skandinavia is better, because it allows you to cover sz7 with fighters. If G buys a bomber in the first round, there is basically no way good way to build naval out of UK in the first two rounds  (even if your Canadian destroyer survives and you manage to sweep all the uboats.) So I usually plan for a third round entry into the game for the Royal NavyAtlantic. This gives you just enough time to be in sz 13 with your Australian carrier deck. Unlike Classic or Revised, where you could shuck into UK or Africa from Eastern Canada v5 really requires 2 fleets to properly manage an Atlantic crossing, one in sz 13 and one to go somewhere else.

    In Classic positioning an Allied fleet by Brazil was fairly pointless and pretty much a losing proposition over the North. In v5 Brazil staging or launching to sz23 is a somewhat stronger play, but it still requires a build up, because G has a lot of air to set up their defense coverage vs fleets.

    India is very hard to hold when Japan is Burma pushing, but if you can get 3 tanks out of it to support Caucasus in the first round I find this gives UK some teeth early on. The alternative of buying armor out of UK just isn’t as effective as in Revised. It takes twice as long as earlier boards, and there aren’t all that many places for the tanks to go. Africa takes a round longer to push across (even with the blitz) and Karelia and the North is much easier for Germany to cover with air (since there are no shucks up into Archangel and the transports provide no fodder cover when parked up there.) By contrast, India with the starting factory will let you get 3 into Russia quick style, and maybe more if the Japanese player is being cautious and conservative with their air. I posted a game last night showing how you can use India tanks for a KGF set up in the AI dev thread. Trying to use them against Japan is inviting disaster. Better to use them against G. The only question is how long to hold India before bailing. A human will force you out faster than the AI. Basically 3 tanks is all you really count on, anything beyond that is dependent on Japan’s moves.

    USA is slow on the uptake, in Classic and Revised you could set up for a round2 move out. In v5 if you move out in the second round, you usually just get stalled. Round 3 is much safer since this will let you get the Battleship ready to launch, and you can have your pacific Carrier by Brazil with UK ships to support it.

    The main reason your friends are probably frustrated is the Russian set up. There just really aren’t many safe ways to destroyer German units on attack without totally screwing your second round position. And we’ve all seen how easy it can be to dud out with a Russian Yak or miss a critical deuce with a Russian artillery piece. I would urge caution in the first round and sending them immediate support from all quarters. You’ve got 4 UK fighters and 1 US fighter that can back up the Russian position, provided you protect Szech, and Stalin needs basically all of them to hold against the initital German advance.

    I’m a big fan of the six unit buys with Russia
    4 inf 2 tanks or 6 artillery. The former if you want to try to hit Ukraine, the latter if you don’t. The second round I generally do the same, and purchase strong attack/counter-attack capable units. All infantry is kind of a worthless buy in the first two rounds, it just gives Axis a green light to move forward and stack since they know you can’t threaten them with anything.

    Here’s a good example, say you have 26 ipcs as Russia, which is fairly standard in early rounds. How would you spend it?

    Would you buy 6 Infantry and 2 artillery?
    or 2 infantry and 5 artillery?

    Your instinct from classic will tell you to spam infantry, but the latter buy is actually much better in v5. Basically you are sacrificing a single hit point on defense fodder, to effectively double your counter attack potential.

    After the first 2 rounds, UK should have provided some cover to make up the difference, and that’s when you start spamming infantry, which is now more effective since they’re activated by extra artillery you invested in early on. You can make the same argument with tanks. Sacrificing a hitpoint to get the extra reach out of Moscow on counter attack. in either case, at least Stalin will be able to fight if you invest in more artillery or armor. The Alternative is just defensive Soviet infantry turtle, and since UK USA take so much longer to move out, Russia will usually just get slammed before the Western Allies can prop them up, and then Russia won’t have enough offensive units to trade territory anymore.

  • '17 '16 '15 '14

    Agreed on the artillery buy; it not only gives you more offensive hit points than the equivalent infantry buy, it amps up the existing infantry so that Germany has to be on it’s toes.  I would usually buy 4 inf 3 art however I think the 6 art buy is stronger in the first round.

    I was looking at options for the first German round and was wondering if it makes more sense to take out the USA destroyer and 2 transports than use the subs vs the cruiser.  Go ahead and expect a fighter loss vs the cruiser and buy an extra bomber on the first round instead of 4 inf/3 art?

    Why am I thinking about Axis moves?    :-o

    The AI usually leaves the India carrier alone once you move it out however it is within range if the fighters want to hit it and the carrier and battleship decide to move a couple of spaces towards Africa.

  • 2024 '22 '21 '19 '15 '14

    Yeah I think it is more disruptive to kill those US transports than the cruiser. Most will double up to make certain of it. This sometimes has the added bonus of annoying the UK player into bringer their bomber back to Canada in an attempt to clear sz 11 of subs.

    For the UK carrier to safely swing around Africa it can sometimes help to leave the Egypt fighter behind to protect  it from the 2 Japanese fighters in range. It’s not full proof, but Japan has a lot of uses for its fighters and might not want to take the risk. Especially if you are able to fly the London fightets and bomber around in range to cover sz 34 on counter attack.

    I posted some games in the AI dev thread showing some pearl openings for Japan. Its fairly simple for the Japanese to sink the US carrier deck if they want to. The way to run that attack is with 2 fighters 1 bomber the sub and the cruiser. Basically you leave the Caroline carrier where it is, since you don’t need to actually move it until non com. As long as you take the first available Japanese air casualty on the fighter that has only 1 movement left, you can usually sink the USA  carrier, without ever risking your own.

    Then land the surviving bomber and fighter on wake. And move your carrier to sz 60 to threaten counter attack if USA takes the bait, tries to hit wake and throws away their battleship ;) That’s a move I’ve seen Axis do once or twice, and it can definitely give the Allies some headaches. So as USA you can’t necessarily plan to have the transports in sz 11 or the pacific fleet in sz53, as both can be destroyed if the Axis player is determined.

  • '17 '16 '15 '14

    And where, if I may ask, is the AI development thread?

  • '17 '16 '15

  • '17 '16 '15 '14

    cool…  thanks!  I have a lot to learn…  just call me grasshoppah…

  • 2024 '22 '21 '19 '15 '14

    Anytime man, I’ve been playing a lot of v5 lately vs HardAI using the latest jar and thinking about things more in general terms for the endgame. I posted some more saves you might want to check out for ideas.

    From an Allied strategy standpoint, there are basically 2 relatively safe approaches, which work well against the AI and also against humans. I say “relatively” because this is clearly a dice game, and a human may do things which the AI currently does not (like engage in heavy factory buys, or use SBR and carriers, or can-open and set up for multi round attacks.) There are many points at which the game can just come undone for Allies which is why many bid for them. Against the AI OOB I think its very possible to win, provided you are willing to play it long enough. For more experienced players, it can be entertaining to give the Axis a bid as well and to forego SBR (since the computer doesn’t use it.)

    But back to strategy, the two main approaches I see are…

    1. Tank wall
    2. Air wall

    Both approaches use units of the other type too, its more a matter of which to magnify first (buy more of early on, either tanks or fighters.)

    The first (Tank Wall) seems to work especially well under KGF conditions. The main objective is to hold India for as long as possible and produce as many tanks as you can there. The real use of the tanks is not so much to do with India defense as it is the endgame launch to Karelia, so Allies can hold the north. Usually in KGF India is eventually evacuated and ideally traded for a few rounds thereafter, so that the India tanks can rush west towards Berlin. The tank wall is particularly effective against Germany in that it allows you to shoot north then stack Baltic states to get the line on Berlin. Until then, they can be positioned in Caucasus to threaten a fairly wide area especially Karelia/India/Szech/Transjordan. Ultimately to make good on the money you spent to build them,  these tanks need find their way into an attack on Berlin.

    The second (Air Wall) seem to work especially well under KJF conditions. Here the main objective is again to hold India for as long as possible, by building ground there and then transiting fighters over from UK via W. Russia/Arch or if necessary Gibraltar to Caucasus. More than India defense, the primary use of these fighters is to hold Moscow and the Center of the gamemap, and especially to keep the IJN from comfortably coasting into Africa and the Med sz 34. Basically you’ll be wheeling the British fighters back and forth between India and Moscow, trying to prop them both up while America dedicates the full weight of their economy to steeling the money islands away from Japan. This air wall move works fairly well for Japanese containment and for giving the USA the income it needs to be truly effective. Its easier to take away the money island and defend them from recapture than it is to take Tokyo though. To actually knock Japan off the board you either have to invest in factories for the money islands and push up French Indo China, or invest heavily in transports and troops out of W. USA for a dead drop on the home island.

    For either approach, someone has to buy fighters to keep Moscow afloat and someone is going to have to buy bombers for transport sweeping, whether that’s USA or UK kind of depends on which sort of wall you go for early, and how early you want to try and set up drops out of UK. Also, just like in Classic, its fairly critical for Allies to retain control of Africa in the long term. You can trade it for a while, but a minimal investment from USA/UK to retain control of this region early on is pretty key to keeping UK viable and preventing Axis from collecting too much too soon.

    The center wedge, keeping Moscow/Caucasus/India viable is usually the optimal approach, there is a certain point generally around 50 units at Moscow, when it starts to become increasingly difficult for Axis to take it without a 1-2 punch, which is the whole idea behind the wedge. Just keeping Axis nations (whether G or J) at least one space off the capital. If you can trade the area around Moscow, and then trade Moscow itself for one of the Axis capitals at an attack advantage, that’s basically what you’re shooting for. The longer you can hold Russia the better chances you’ll have to set that up.

    KJF/KGF are also conceived more as general investment directions than strict pursuits. Unlike some earlier boards, it a bit harder in v5 to go 100 percent in one direction. Fequently you have to bounce your air back and forth, or make at least a small investment in the minor theater of operations (whether that’s Atlantic of Pacific) to prevent the Axis from going monster. But you want to develop a clear thrust one way or the other by the fifth round, otherwise it just takes forever to knock out a capital.

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