• Some stats on naval power in 1914:

    Total tonnage of naval strength:

    British: 2.2 Million
    Germany: 1.0 Million
    France: 0.7 Million
    Russia: 0.3 Million
    Austria-Hungary: 0.2 Million

    British military doctrine at the time was to be able to field a navy that was greater than any two other powers combined.  (This is partly why the German naval build-up, although still far less than the British naval power, was so threatening.)  A&A is a game, you have to balance it and make it interesting, but the lack of British naval power, especially relative to the other powers, is a little bit off.


  • Thank you for those figures Aristokles. Had no idea Germany was second.


  • So France could use a massive reduction (both for historical accuracy and game balance) in naval setup.
    Russia could too, maybe remove one of its cruisers in sz 21

  • Customizer

    Also, Turkey had no modern warships in August 1914. It was only the arrival of the Goeben & Breslau in Constantinople that gave them a pair of modern cruisers, and incidentally triggered their entry into the war.

    To be historically accurate, these units should begin as German cruisers in SZ18.


  • @Aristokles:

    Some stats on naval power in 1914:

    Total tonnage of naval strength:

    British: 2.2 Million
    Germany: 1.0 Million
    France: 0.7 Million
    Russia: 0.3 Million
    Austria-Hungary: 0.2 Million

    British military doctrine at the time was to be able to field a navy that was greater than any two other powers combined.  (This is partly why the German naval build-up, although still far less than the British naval power, was so threatening.)  A&A is a game, you have to balance it and make it interesting, but the lack of British naval power, especially relative to the other powers, is a little bit off.

    Simply counting tonnage does not suffice to reflect naval power of the nations.

    1. It was the time of Dreadnoughts and Battlecruisers! These mostly defined naval power!
    -> Figures in August 1914:
    Dreadnoughts: UK: 22, Germany: 15, USA 10, France 8, Austria-Hungary 6, Italy 3, Russia NONE (again: NONE!!!)
    Battlecruisers: UK 9, Germany 5 (all others none)

    2. Many ships were too old already thus being regarded as “unfit for high seas duty!”
    -> This is especially true for Russia and Turkey, but also for France and UK (almost all their submarines were old “garbage” and could only be used as costal submarines!).

    Naval power UK:G in the North Sea was about 3:2.
    Behind those 2 powers: Long time nothing! Then USA!


  • Thank you xxstefanx.
    Germany had double the number of Dreadnoughts than France? Again that is badly reflected in the game.
    Russia too makes no sense then.
    Flashman had already explained about the Turks.

    I would be happy adding one to the UK(Home Waters), adding a second to Germany, leaving US and Austria as they,'then removing Italy’s and Russia’s one and reducing one of France’s to a Cruiser. (Turks should lose a Cruiser too and maybe give Russia and the Italians a Cruiser to compensate.)
    Will have to put those changes on the map, so I can see if it could help with balance. It will certainly change things in the Med.

    Needless to say, we are no closer to knowing about the Transport numbers, or why France has been given three!


  • Thinking about it, we cannot take away Italy’s Dreadnought or Austria will attack their fleet. The stalemate is a good starting position as Italy should not even be at war!

    Maybe it would be simpler to take a Transport from France and reduce one of its Dreadnoughts to a Cruiser.



  • One must not forget the Battlecruisers!
    Though nominated “Cruisers” they could hardly be seen as one! In fact, they were fast Battleships:
    Slightly less armour, but superior speed. They could outrun all dreadnoughts so that they were used in separate scouting squadrons with massive firepower!
    (see Doggerbank or Jutland for instance)

    In terms of a game they are supposed to be a new WWI specific unit type with the following stats:
    A=4, D=4, M=3, Hits 1,5, Cost same as dreadnought

    Of course this would only be for a next BIG global WWI game with diplomacy, technology, cavalry, etc.!!
    (I assume A&A 1914 is a success already!)


  • I feel like Austria needs to start with a submarine. As it is now, once all of the powers merge in the med on the first turn all of the CP warships are pretty much trapped forever.

    In one of our games where AH attempted to build a navy they had no hope because France can just drop ships directly out of Marseilles. Britain has nothing to fear bringing up their warships from India because the Ottomans can’t ever hope to get through the Suez canal (yet every ally can get through the Bosphorus straight… nice balance).

    Britain can easily match any German navy and France can completely neutralize an AH navy with just a couple ships. The CP can never hope to match navies with the Allies and are doomed to sitting in their tiny sea zones staring out.

    I firmly believe that the only reason the CP ships even exist is as a speedbump and minor deterrent so the Allies don’t just amphibiously assault in the first 2-3 turns.


  • That mirrors what we’ve seen in our games zanetheinsane, the CP navies just delay the inevitable amphibs for a couple turns (does give you a chance to get art to def the coast though w/double shot).

    Assuming these figures are accurate for tonnage, dread knots etc…, I would be on board with exploring a reduction to the French fleet. I was thinking in that direction w/o the historical data (just for game play).  I would like to see one of the French battleships reduced to a cruiser, and remove one transport (which one(s) to be determined). Germany can knock out the UK home fleet, but the allies can easily have the French warships move up, and drop a new UK navy in the water w/o worrying to much about the Germans (especially if the Germans also tried to take out the Canadian fleet, (didn’t build any navy), and are now spread thin).

    I wouldn’t want to add ships to the Austrian navy at set-up just yet though (I think they need to feel trapped), but I think the UK India cruiser could move to the southern tip of Africa w/o a doubt (sz25). This (along w/French reduction) could help the CP in the Med quite a bit IMO (the UK S African cruiser may go to the Atlantic in a call to arms).  Even if the Austrians build some navy in the early rounds they are still generally stuck in port, or face overwhelming odds in sz17. The allies simply have much navy available in close range to the Med (at least make them think where to go with their over abundance of navy, and delay it a bit).

  • Customizer

    It seems something of a consensus is forming regarding naval setup.

    Removing/reducing the French SZ15 BB, & removing one French transport seem universally popular.

    I would also add:

    German cruiser to SZ26, transport to SZ10

    Austrian sub to SZ18

    German cruiser (Goeben) to SZ18, removing one of the Turkish models.

    I’m broadly in favour of Italy being neutral round one (and Turkey being neutral until its own first turn), so the various CP ships in the Med would be able to move around/concentrate on that turn without running afoul of Italian ships and mines.

    Unfortunately KH says Austrian couldn’t use this to launch an AA on Libya without the SZ being treated as hostile.

    My own proposed map change for the Med is more radical:

    NewMed.PNG


  • Flash regarding neutral powers, I think that G40 was the first game I played that had neutrals powers (similar to US in this game). You’re never been able to float through the navy of a neutral power comprised of surface warships and amphib their territories, or pass through a sz they have surface war ships in to attack their ships in another sz (in the same turn that I’m aware of). Once you declare your intentions in the movement phase you have to fight the navy (if its in your way), there’s no sneak attacks (you basically deliver a DOW as you move your units, and all their units/navy are now hostel, and their mines turned on).

    So yeah, if you house ruled Italy in as a neutral before their first turn, but decided to invade one of their starting original territories like Libya then yeah, you would face the mines, and have to fight their ships before you hit the beaches. Now Albania might be a different story though w/neutral Italy, because it is a minor power aligned to Italy (not an Italian original territory). I think you could attack Albania, and not fight the Italian navy/mines, but it would draw Italy into the war (IDK, its your house rule LOL).


  • It seems something of a consensus is forming regarding naval setup.

    Is this for play balance or historical reasons? I’m not convinced that there is enough supporting evidence yet to suggest the game is significantly biased to one side or the other and as such it is too early to make any changes solely on that.

    For “historical” reasons, I tend to agree that France has too large a navy, and for sure no way should she have 2 battleships while the Germans have only one. It should be more like England 3, Germany 2 and everyone else no more (if any) than one.

    As for giving Austria a sub, she started the war with 7, Germany started with 20, But the British had 74 Subs!! So if you want “historical” then the UK has got to start with some subs.

    Italy being neutral makes historical sense, though don’t know how it would effect play balance.

    German cruisers (Goeben and Breslau) were actually in Messina in early August, so if Italy is neutral, they should start in SZ 19 if you want to go that route. Making Turkey neutral would allow the Russians to move into the Med, the Turks would never have allowed that even if neutral.

    Can’t change the map, sorry.

    Kim

  • Customizer

    I should have said give Germany a sub in SZ18. I’m not certain British subs were up to much at this time, compared to the German models.


  • @Flashman:

    I should have said give Germany a sub in SZ18. I’m not certain British subs were up to much at this time, compared to the German models.

    The Germans were shipping U-boats by rail to Austria, and they assembled them in port. The subs were manned by Austrians though. As for British subs, some of them had to be doing something when war starts, they didn’t need to start building them from scratch.

    Kim


  • I think giving Austia a sub would help with balance, and it seems it would also be historically correct ;)


  • In case anybody cares here is the starting naval strength for 8/14. So if you want accuracy you can create ratios of piece and historical number of units

    I suggest:
    Dreadnought  7.5 to 1
    Pre-Dreadnought  7.5 to 1
    Battle-cruiser 10 to 1
    Armored Cruiser  20 to 1
    Protected Cruiser 20 to 1
    Other Cruiser 30 to 1
    Destroyer 40 to 1
    Submarine 25 to 1?

    France:
    Dreadnought 8
    Pre-Dreadnought 14
    Battle-cruiser
    Armored Cruiser 19
    Protected Cruiser 9
    Other Cruiser
    Destroyer 81
    Submarine 70

    UK:
    Dreadnought 22
    Pre-Dreadnought 40
    Battle-cruiser  9
    Armored Cruiser  34
    Protected Cruiser  52
    Other Cruiser  35
    Destroyer  221
    Submarine  73

    Italy:
    Dreadnought  3
    Pre-Dreadnought  7
    Battle-cruiser
    Armored Cruiser  7
    Protected Cruiser  11
    Other Cruiser  3
    Destroyer  33
    Submarine  23

    Russia:
    Dreadnought
    Pre-Dreadnought  10
    Battle-cruiser
    Armored Cruiser  6
    Protected Cruiser  6
    Other Cruiser
    Destroyer 25
    Submarine  22

    USA:
    Dreadnought  10
    Pre-Dreadnought  23
    Battle-cruiser
    Armored Cruiser  12
    Protected Cruiser  22
    Other Cruiser
    Destroyer  50
    Submarine 16

    Aus-Hun
    Dreadnought  6
    Pre-Dreadnought  6
    Battle-cruiser
    Armored Cruiser  2
    Protected Cruiser  3
    Other Cruiser
    Destroyer  18
    Submarine  5

    Germany:
    Dreadnought  15
    Pre-Dreadnought  22
    Battle-cruiser  5
    Armored Cruiser  7
    Protected Cruiser  17
    Other Cruiser  16
    Destroyer  90
    Submarine  31

    Ottomans:
    Dreadnought
    Pre-Dreadnought  2
    Battle-cruiser
    Armored Cruiser
    Protected Cruiser  2
    Other Cruiser
    Destroyer  8
    Submarine

    Notes:
    German u-boat strength in 1914 never exceeded 34 units ( Dec)
    Ottomans got a few battle-cruisers from Germany after the war started
    I can post info for Spain and other navies BTW.


  • So what ships would represent what units in the game?


  • Ottomans got one BC (Goeben) and on LC (Breslau) from Germany and that tipped the balance in the Black Sea slightly in their favour!

    @KimRYoung
    The overwhelming majority of UK Submarines were obsolete, unfit for high seas operations. Did you ever see pictures of their older models? They could hardly sail a mile away from the shore! :-D

    Again, do not simply count units!

    For this game historical accuracy surely was not in the focus!
    So at this point I think changing the French Dreadnought to a cruiser and remove one transport should be enough for now to play some games and see how things go!

    Apropos historical accuracy: My next big post in my C&E thread will handle that and make some remarks to the setup!

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