Thank you Panther!
In doing J1, in favor of attacking Hawaii
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I love to hit Hawaii w/J1 attack. You can hit every thing you normally do w/J1, plus take out a few more US ships. What you can’t do IMO is go all in and leave your fleet exposed at Hawaii to a counter attack. You can still hit the US fleet at Phil, and take the island using your other two tpts, and carrier planes. The UK BB is still a viable target, and so is Kwangtung and FIC (I like to build minor ICs on both J2).
I don’t agree with stationing your fleet at Midway J1, because the US San Fran fleet can hit you. I go to Wake because it is much safer and you can block out the US San Fran fleet.
I hit Hawaii with 1ss, 2 dd’s, 2frts, 2tacs. The important thing is to have a dd survive the battle (even if it costs you planes). Having a dd survive in sz26 blocks out the US San Fran fleet so it can’t be used in the counter attack on Wake. You then NCM your cruiser, BB and 2 carriers to Wake to pick up the air units. Also make sure you leave a couple planes on Japan to NCM in to replace any air you might have lost in the battle. I generally take Wake on J1 so that if the allies (US/Anz) try to double hit my Wake fleet my planes have somewhere to land. I can take the first 3 hits on my capital ships, and the planes can land safely (believe me the allies won’t hit you if you took Wake). I have played where I don’t take Wake a couple times so I can take Borneo instead, but you run the risk of a double attack at Wake (US air strike followed by Anz).
The US would be hard pressed to move its home fleet up to Hawaii on US1 with you sitting right next to him at Wake, especially if you took Wake and have 3-4 air units sitting on Japan. J2 I generally retreat to Caroline’s, but it would depend on what the US did on US1. J2 I like to take Malaya so the Anz doesn’t keep that NO, and Borneo if I can (using the Phil force). Then the rest of the spice islands J3. You can also force the UK to turtle if you buy a NB for FIC J2, and bring down the 3 loaded transports you bough J1.
I will say that Asia (China) will be a little thin, and has some early challenges. That’s why I like to build those IC’s on FIC and Hong Kong J2 so I can pump out some ground units J3.
When the US gets sucker punched and loses all those support ships it has a hard time deciding what side to build/rebuild on. The shackles are off, but they don’t have the navy to do squat for at least a couple turns.
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Haven’t looked at this in a while, but if you skip the scramble and counterattack with everything, that doesn’t look good for Japan (my broad recollection).
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Haven’t looked at this in a while, but if you skip the scramble and counterattack with everything, that doesn’t look good for Japan (my broad recollection).
That’s the scenario I ran today 10+ times. The U.S. only survives about 1/3 the time using everything it can against Japan’s SZ6 fleet with the destroyer from Caroline Islands included. However, checking, it looks like Japan had all its units, and had not lost anything in the original attack, so maybe IF they take a hit in the original attack on Hawaii fleet, they should lose a plane, not the sub, because they can replace the plane on the non-combat move.
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Haven’t looked at this in a while, but if you skip the scramble and counterattack with everything, that doesn’t look good for Japan (my broad recollection).
That’s the scenario I ran today 10+ times. The U.S. only survives about 1/3 the time using everything it can against Japan’s SZ6 fleet with the destroyer from Caroline Islands included. However, checking, it looks like Japan had all its units, and had not lost anything in the original attack, so maybe IF they take a hit in the original attack on Hawaii fleet, they should lose a plane, not the sub, because they can replace the plane on the non-combat move.
That includes the Eastern US fighter which can land on the carrier?
If the counterattack isn’t good for the US, for Japan to have a good portion of their fleet out of position and having US income activity is an issue already.
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It does include both the fighter and bomber on the U.S.’ Europe side of the map.
The issue is… it looks good for the U.S. My opponent thought so, for sure. Especially since Japan can’t just wound its carriers right away. They’re forced to lose planes.
But so what about being ‘out of position’? For what? I asked this up thread… what do you usually use that fleet for? If I move, I get convoyed and lose Korea to the U.S. on US3. So, then I have to stay in SZ6 anyway…
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It does include both the fighter and bomber on the U.S.’ Europe side of the map.
The issue is… it looks good for the U.S. My opponent thought so, for sure. Especially since Japan can’t just wound its carriers right away. They’re forced to lose planes.
But so what about being ‘out of position’? For what? I asked this up thread… what do you usually use that fleet for? If I move, I get convoyed and lose Korea to the U.S. on US3. So, then I have to stay in SZ6 anyway…
Taking DEI, the Philippines, protect transports and forcing India to turtle. The fleet doesn’t need to occupy SZ6, it just needs to dead zone it.
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It does include both the fighter and bomber on the U.S.’ Europe side of the map.
The issue is… it looks good for the U.S. My opponent thought so, for sure. Especially since Japan can’t just wound its carriers right away. They’re forced to lose planes.
But so what about being ‘out of position’? For what? I asked this up thread… what do you usually use that fleet for? If I move, I get convoyed and lose Korea to the U.S. on US3. So, then I have to stay in SZ6 anyway…
Taking DEI, the Philippines, protect transports and forcing India to turtle. The fleet doesn’t need to occupy SZ6, it just needs to dead zone it.
I do all those things with all the other ships Japan has, SZ19, etc. What is dead zone’ing it?
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I am not a fan of taking significant risks on the first round unless there is going to be a hugely positive outcome. The United States can lose the Pearl Harbor fleet and still quickly recover. If something goes wrong for Japan in that attack, their fleet is very vulnerable to a counterattack. Additionally, if there are any issues in the attacks on the Money Islands or Yunnan during the first couple of turns, Japan is in huge trouble.
I like to bring a couple of Russian fast movers into China on R1. If Japan goes risky and gets bad dice, that tank and mech combined with some planes will be enough to change the outcome of the mainland Asia battles.
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My reason not to do this is I need those ACs protecting my fleet to ensure rapid conquest of the islands. If I send the bulk of the fleet to Hawaii on Turn 1, it will take longer to secure Malaya and the money islands and it will be easier for Allies to swipe my transports (6, 35, off Borneo). Attacking Pearl means it takes 2 turns for the Japanese fleet to move back to somewhere more useful.
Also, diverting some of your fighters deep into the Pacific takes some pressure off India and China in the crucial early rounds.
I like the desire to bag the Pearl Harbor ipc swing, but it’s not quite worth the adverse consequences. Sumatra is an 8 swing if UK controls it after UK1. Malaya is an 11 swing. The money’s in the orient.
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One of the reasons why I used to do an attack on Pearl Harbor was because it cripples the allies in the west for some time however I believe you need to bring everything that can reach Pearl Harbor to Pearl Harbor otherwise the US player may be ballsy and take their San Diego fleet against Japan and then you might also get attacked by ANZAC with their Australian Air Corp and the New Zealand navy. However I believe if you drag the US into the war, you are moving away from Boreno and the Dutch Islands.
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My reason not to do this is I need those ACs protecting my fleet to ensure rapid conquest of the islands. If I send the bulk of the fleet to Hawaii on Turn 1, it will take longer to secure Malaya and the money islands and it will be easier for Allies to swipe my transports (6, 35, off Borneo). Attacking Pearl means it takes 2 turns for the Japanese fleet to move back to somewhere more useful.
Also, diverting some of your fighters deep into the Pacific takes some pressure off India and China in the crucial early rounds.I like the desire to bag the Pearl Harbor ipc swing, but it’s not quite worth the adverse consequences. Sumatra is an 8 swing if UK controls it after UK1. Malaya is an 11 swing. The money’s in the orient.
Well said, can’t afford to lose the transports and need to get India and China to turtle otherwise the unit exchange will slow Japan down. I would be delighted with a Pearl Harbor attack.
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That’s why I advocate a hit and run on Pearl so you don’t put your Imperial fleet in harms way. You Hit Pearl w/1ss, 2dd, 2 ftr’s, 2tac’s, then NCM cruiser, bb, and 2 carriers to Wake to pick up planes. Again you make sure a dd survives the battle to block out the US San Fran fleet from the counter attack. You have 100% odds in the Pearl attack (93% if they scramble the 2 ftrs). Your Japanese losses are minimal, and J2 you can retreat to Caroline’s. Being on Caroline’s and Malaya on J2 forces the Anz to turtle up, or at least keep their mini fleet away from you, because with out the US backing him up, little brother can’t come out and play. Keeping the US and Anz bottled up in their own harbors gives the Japanese better position IMO, and you can still start taking the other assets like Malaya and DEI because UK hasn’t got much fleet left off India, and what they have generally runs to Egypt or Mid East.
You still build 3 transports J1, and probably 2 minor ICs on J2 (for Asia/Calcutta push). I like to take Malaya J2 (Anz NO), and maybe Borneo depending on what the UK has defending Malaya. The rest of the DEI falls on J3, and you have the other half of the Japanese fleet to protect them, plus your Caroline’s fleet can also get to Java if you need it to.
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I like your thoughts about a J1 DoW WB.
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@WILD:
That’s why I advocate a hit and run on Pearl so you don’t put your Imperial fleet in harms way. You Hit Pearl w/1ss, 2dd, 2 ftr’s, 2tac’s, then NCM cruiser, bb, and 2 carriers to to Wake to pick up planes. Again you make sure a dd survives the battle to block out the US San Fran fleet from the counter attack. You have 100% odds in the Pearl attack (93% if they scramble the 2 ftrs). Your Japanese losses are minimal, and J2 you can retreat to Caroline’s. Being on Caroline’s and Malaya on J2 forces the Anz to turtle up, or at least keep their mini fleet away from you, because with out the US backing him up, little brother can’t come out and play. Keeping the US and Anz bottled up in their own harbors gives the Japanese better position IMO, and you can still start taking the other assets like Malaya and DEI because UK hasn’t got much fleet left off India, and what they have generally runs to Egypt or Mid East.
You still build 3 transports J1, and probably 2 minor ICs on J2 (for Asia/Calcutta push). I like to take Malaya J2 (Anz NO), and maybe Borneo depending on what the UK has defending Malaya. The rest of the DEI falls on J3, and you have the other half of the Japanese fleet to protect them, plus your Caroline’s fleet can also get to Java if you need it to.
I like your variation and I think I’ll try that tomorrow.
Is there a reason you don’t take Borneo J1? Nothing can hit it if you sink the UK battleship. I’m usually J1: Philippines and Borneo; J2 Malaya; J3 other 3 money islands (though sometimes I flip that and get the money on J2 but I really like a factory on Malaya)
I also prefer a MiC on J1 so I can get mainland tanks on J2.
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Wild Bill is right. It really is as simple as leaving a destroyer to block out the US counter.
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@WILD:
That’s why I advocate a hit and run on Pearl so you don’t put your Imperial fleet in harms way. You Hit Pearl w/1ss, 2dd, 2 ftr’s, 2tac’s, then NCM cruiser, bb, and 2 carriers to to Wake to pick up planes. Again you make sure a dd survives the battle to block out the US San Fran fleet from the counter attack. You have 100% odds in the Pearl attack (93% if they scramble the 2 ftrs). Your Japanese losses are minimal, and J2 you can retreat to Caroline’s. Being on Caroline’s and Malaya on J2 forces the Anz to turtle up, or at least keep their mini fleet away from you, because with out the US backing him up, little brother can’t come out and play. Keeping the US and Anz bottled up in their own harbors gives the Japanese better position IMO, and you can still start taking the other assets like Malaya and DEI because UK hasn’t got much fleet left off India, and what they have generally runs to Egypt or Mid East.
You still build 3 transports J1, and probably 2 minor ICs on J2 (for Asia/Calcutta push). I like to take Malaya J2 (Anz NO), and maybe Borneo depending on what the UK has defending Malaya. The rest of the DEI falls on J3, and you have the other half of the Japanese fleet to protect them, plus your Caroline’s fleet can also get to Java if you need it to.
I like your variation and I think I’ll try that tomorrow.
Is there a reason you don’t take Borneo J1? Nothing can hit it if you sink the UK battleship. I’m usually J1: Philippines and Borneo; J2 Malaya; J3 other 3 money islands (though sometimes I flip that and get the money on J2 but I really like a factory on Malaya)
I also prefer a MiC on J1 so I can get mainland tanks on J2.
If I take Wake, then I probably don’t get Borneo, because I generally use the other 2 transports to take Phil w/carrier planes. I suppose you could attempt the Phil w/one transport, but I like better odds in the opening round. You could also forgo taking Wake (I have), and take Borneo instead J1. You should probably not take unnecessary risks the first time you try it though IMO.
Taking Wake will just about insure the allies won’t attempt to hit your fleet. The US has to do an air only assault because you have a dd survive in sz26 (blocker) and they know you can suck up the first 3 hits and land your planes. Plus if you take Wake the Anz can’t use any air units to hit you in sz31 (Wake) because they have nowhere to land (only the Anz cruiser can hit you)
I have also built an IC in Asia on J1, but it takes 2 turns for meck/tanks to get to Yunnan from Kiangsu. It is only one turn from Kwangtung. So in reality the mechanized units you build J2 from the IC in Kaingsi (built J1) would get to Yunnan at the same time as the mechanized units you build in Hong Kong J3. And of course slow movers built in FIC can hit Yunnan the next tun. They would all hit Yunnan on J4. I’m not saying that building an IC in Asia J1 it is good or bad, because building units up the coast can still push into central China. I just like to put more pressure on Yunnan, and then India. However if the Siberians are hanging around, or Russia is known to enter China through the back door then that J1 IC would come in handy pumping units into central or northern China.
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I get it, Wild Bill.
For me, the IC on J1 is usually mop up for China. I especially like capturing northern China because Japanese bombers can start hitting Moscow J5 from Kansu, if it all goes well.
Its also helpful if Russia or U.S. start coming down on Korea or Manchuria.
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I looked at the map some more and my main issue with a Hawaii J1 is Yunnan. The Allies can truly stack that territory with a huge combined Russian, UK, and Chinese force. All Russia has to do is bring a mech and tank to Sikang on R1. If Japan is playing conservatively or has average luck on their first round, Russia returns these fast movers to the European theater. If Japan does something unusual like a Pearl Harbor attack, those fast movers join up with Russian planes from Moscow and Indian troops heading in from the south, plus freshly built Chinese soldiers.
Japan likely can recapture Yunnan on J2, but without the planes that were sent to Hawaii the fight could cost the Axis the game. If Japan decides to wait another turn before attacking Yunnan, there can be another dozen Allied units reaching there before J3. The Imperial Fleet still isn’t in position to help launch carrier based planes until J4 and by that time the Pacific theater could be a disaster for the Axis.
Always bring the Russian mech + tank to Sikang on R1 to search for a key opportunity to stack Yunnan or drive down into Malaysia.
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I think you have plenty of air power as Japan w/o the 4 carrier planes in the mid Pacific to do the job in China. I will say that at times I have kept 4 more air units on Japan as well to deter the US from moving its home fleet up to Hawaii US1. I have even thought about building 2 transports and 2 subs J1 to really put the pressure on Hawaii (sz26). I think you need to build that extra transport (or minor IC) though, so I haven’t built the subs.
I think the problem is more with the lack of ground units Japan will have in Asia, but this is the case in any J1 attack IMO. Using the 3rd transport to take Wake leaves you with less options in the Asian land battle. You have to make some decisions in this J1 attack if you take Wake Island because of the other things you need to do. You need to take Kwangtung, load the SZ20 transport for the assault on Phil, and hit Yunnan. So the 4 units from Kwangsi hit Yunnan, and that leaves just the 4 units on Kiangsi to take Kwangtung (2 inf) and load transport (inf/art) to hit Phil. This leaves no ground units to take Hunan. You have plenty of air units to assist on these battles, but should you try to air sweep Hunan, maybe?
Another thing you have to consider is a British attack on either FIC (where you want to build a minor IC), or your air force sitting on Kwangsi. The Brit transport w/air can hit either of them, so you probably want to end J1 with a couple war ships in sz36 so they can’t get ground units in. Doing that leaves the attack on sz 35 a little weaker, so they could scramble the ftr. You could place a blocker in sz37, but that isn’t a good place for your cruiser, unless you used it to attack the Brit BB. Just saying you need to balance this out, and see the counters.
Any way, yea Asia is a problem early on, but the transports and minor ICs should help with that in the mid term.
BTW I agree that the Russians sending in the mech/tank into China is a good idea, but I’m also looking at Gargantua’s 6 tank purchase R1 (3 for Leningrad and 3 for Ukraine) to keep the Germans from stacking E Poland G2/G3. If you send that mech/tank to China you lose the odds advantage for attacking East Poland (just saying that it isn’t always the way to go).
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Isn’t the argument that you can force Germany to stack E Poland, which is the least flexible position for him to assume?
I don’t think you can stop him from doing it at all……
at least the stacks that are forming up G2 don’t seem beatable by Russia regardless of buys? right? I bring 3 AAA guns then 5 AAA so an early Russia attack is going to cost them most of their better stuff…
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