Right on Thats what I thought. Just wanted to make sure :)
Panzer and I have a another Epic Game going on lol
HBG units "Custom" Rules question (Global game)
-
What if the Russians shared the design or lease lent for the “Stalin” tank and the US produced it?
The nice thing about A&A 1941 is that it provides American-green IS-2 tanks which allow precisely this situation to be represented.
-
@CWO:
What if the Russians shared the design or lease lent for the “Stalin” tank and the US produced it?
The nice thing about A&A 1941 is that it provides American-green IS-2 tanks which allow precisely this situation to be represented.
I’m just wondering about Russia.
Did anyone give them a T-34 tank with this stat (like the old Armor from 2e ed.):
Att Def Move Cost
Medium Tank 3 2 2 5Instead of the reg Armor unit:
Att Def Move Cost
Panzer/Tiger? Tank 3 3 2 6I’m asking because it can be a way to slightly increase the production of fast moving units and simulate the man’s-craft and production difference of German vs Soviet tank ?
-
Here are some combat values for 11 different possible units you could incorporate into the game. Someone put this idea here in the forum on another thread way back when we first started getting different types of units from HBG. It keeps to a formula of ATT + DEF + MOVE - 1 = COST. That formula seems to work pretty well for land units but not for planes or ships.
Attack Defense Move Cost
Infantry 1 2 1 3
Elite Infantry 2 2 1 4
Mobile Infantry 1 2 2 4
Armored Infantry 2 1 2 4
Light Tank 2 2 2 5
Artillery 3 2 1 5
Medium Tank 3 2 2 6
Medium Tank Dest/SPG 2 3 2 6
Heavy Artillery 4 2 1 6
Heavy Tank 4 3 2 8
Heavy Tank Dest/SPG 3 4 2 8You could even tinker around with some of these to fit your purpose, like having Heavy Tanks only move 1 but attack and defend @ 4. That’s an idea I have also pondered since the bigger heavier tanks simply didn’t move as fast as some of the medium and light tanks.
Elite Infantry could be paratroopers, SS, Guards, Commandos, SNLF, etc. You could even have some type of special rules or advantages for each one, although that would add complexity to the game.
Mobile Infantry would probably be trucks and jeeps. I am planning a special set of rules for those pieces along the lines of transport planes and transport ships.
Armored Infantry would be like armored cars and maybe half-tracks.Speaking of different type of unit:
This Artillery will be a better historical representative since Art are less mobile and better for defensive stand, I think:Medium Artillery A2D3M1C5 each give +1A to 1 Inf.
Mobile Artillery? A2D2M2C5, each give +1A to 1 Inf.
and both can be a companion to
T-34 medium Tank A3D2M2C5, can Blitz.But this is all inside the 1940 Global cost paradigm:
Art A2D2M1C4 and Armor A3D3M2C6.Maybe Light Tank can be A2D2M2C4, can Blitz.
OOB Mech (mobile) Infantry are A1D2M2C4, get +1A when paired with Art, can blitz with Armor.
Maybe Armored Infantry A2D1M2C4, get +1A when paired with Art or even Tank, can blitz with Armor?.
Here is a summary.
Inside Global 1940 cost:
Mech Infantry A1D2M2C4, get +1A when paired with Art, can blitz with tank.
Armored Infantry A2D1M2C4, get +1A when paired with Art (even tank?), can blitz with tank.Light Tank A2D2M2C4, can blitz.
Light Artillery A2D2M1C4, each give +1A to 1 Inf. OOB Artillery
Mobile Artillery A2D2M2C5, each give +1A to 1 Inf.
Medium Artillery A2D3M1C5, each give +1A to 1 Inf.Medium Tank(T34) A3D2M2C5, can blitz.
Heavy Tank A3D3M2C6, can blitz. OOB Armor
Hvy Tank Destroyer A4D4M1C7, no blitz.Or
Heavy Tank Destroyer A4D3M1C7, destroy tank on roll of “1”. -
@Baron:
I’m just wondering about Russia.
Did anyone give them a T-34 tank with this stat (like the old Armor from 2e ed.):
            Att    Def    Move  Cost
Medium Tank    3      2      2     5
Instead of the reg Armor unit:
                  Att    Def    Move  Cost
Panzer/Tiger? Tank    3      3      2     6I haven’t looked at all the proposed tables in detail, but one thing to remember about the T-34 is that its protection level was excellent for a medium tank. Its armour wasn’t unusually thick, but it was severely sloped, which augmented its effectiveness. When the Germans first ran into it with their Panzer IIIs and IVs, they got a nasty suprise when they saw some of their shells literally bouncing off the T-34. They were so impressed that they produced their own adaptation of the T-34, the Panther.
-
@CWO:
What if the Russians shared the design or lease lent for the “Stalin” tank and the US produced it?
The nice thing about A&A 1941 is that it provides American-green IS-2 tanks which allow precisely this situation to be represented.
Yes indeed sir. Once my Japanese units come in from HBG I’ll be buying some more of these! I may just buy anther 41 edition because I love a lot of the sculpts in that edition. It also provides the optimal pieces to accommodate lend lease house rules. The HBG P-40 and FW-190 are okay but the OOB ones are much better IMO.
-
Just my opinion here. You can add extra attack dice or hit points to your heavy armor. It won’t unbalance the game as much as you might think. If ALL players have them available it isn’t going to crash your game. It might actually speed up games like G40. If you have a variety of units don’t be afraid to power them up a little.
Additionally, some nations might have a weapon or two that others do not giving a sort of national advantage. There’s a lot of good stuff to use. The HBG units aren’t OOB anyway so you may as well bend some rules to bring them in LOL.
-
I may just buy anther 41 edition because I love a lot of the sculpts in that edition.
Me too – I own several copies of 1941 for that reason. And I like the fact that, even though the rules designate them as tanks and battleships, the 1941 game provides both the Axis and the Allies with sculpts for heavy tanks and for battlecruisers, so it’s easy to treat them in house rules as land units distinct from medium tanks (which is what most of the other A&A tank sculpts are) and as sea units positioned between battleships and cruisers.
-
@CWO:
@Baron:
I’m just wondering about Russia.
Did anyone give them a T-34 tank with this stat (like the old Armor from 2e ed.):
Att Def Move Cost
Medium Tank 3 2 2 5
Instead of the reg Armor unit:
Att Def Move Cost
Panzer/Tiger? Tank 3 3 2 6I haven’t looked at all the proposed tables in detail, but one thing to remember about the T-34 is that its protection level was excellent for a medium tank. Its armour wasn’t unusually thick, but it was severely sloped, which augmented its effectiveness. When the Germans first ran into it with their Panzer IIIs and IVs, they got a nasty surprise when they saw some of their shells literally bouncing off the T-34. They were so impressed that they produced their own adaptation of the T-34, the Panther.
After some research, what you said sound very right.
It implies that the basic medium tank is the OOB 1940 global: A3D3M2C6.
Unless, someone desire to play a more progressive game with tank.
Starting on the board with some A3D2M2C5 and adding some better tank after.
But it will affect the balance of the game.Otherwise: Panther (Panzer Mark V) and Tiger (Panzer Mark VI) should have better stats than OOB Medium Tank A3D3M2C6.
Fast Heavy tank (Panther) A4D3M2C7, can blitz, give +1A to TcB when paired with.
Slow Heavy tank (Tiger) A4D4M1C7, no blitz, give +1A to TcB when paired with.Heavy Tank Destroyer A4D4M1C8, no blitz, destroy a tank on a “1” roll.
-
Here is a revised summary.
Inside Global 1940 system cost:
Mech Infantry OOB A1D2M2C4, get +1A when paired with Art, can blitz with tank.
Armored Infantry A2D1M2C4, get +1A when paired with Art (even tank?), can blitz with tank.Light Artillery A2D2M1C4, each give +1A to 1 Inf. OOB Artillery
Medium Artillery A3D3M1C5, each give +1A to 1 Inf.
Mobile Artillery A2D3M2C5, each give +1A to 1 Inf.Heavy Artillery A3D4M1C6, each give +1A to 1 Inf.
Light Tank A3D2M2C5, can blitz, give +1A to TcB when paired with.
Medium Tank (T-34) A3D3M2C6, can blitz, give +1A to TcB when paired with. OOB Armor
Fast Heavy tank (Panther) A4D3M2C7, can blitz, give +1A to TcB when paired with.
Slow Heavy tank (Tiger) A4D4M1C7, no blitz, give +1A to TcB when paired with.Heavy Tank Destroyer A4D4M1C8, no blitz, destroy a tank on each “1” rolled.
What do you think of this scale increments in stats?
-
Consider the fact that there are also light tanks like the; Stuart, Panzer 35t, Panzer II, T-26, the 7TP. There are also; Panzer III, Chi-Ha, and various “to be determined” medium tanks to contend with when figuring out formulas for stats. Coach has indicated that there will be a Panzer IV in a potential German set. The current incarnations of Italian and Japanese tanks are in fact light tanks. There are also heavy tanks in the works.
I don’t like D12 rule sets and am working on my own D6 variant as pieces come out. The problem when posting on the board is just the honest fact that many people just don’t like the new units. Many don’t own any of the units. Lastly, You’ll have to bend the OOB structure of the game and it just doesn’t jive OOB rules, tourney play, or tripleA games. THAT"S TOTALLY FINE. I’m not trying to convert anyone or discredit their opinion. There are a few of us “piece junkies” and quite frankly “outlaw” players/groups that want more/different game experiences.
To play D6 or use the HBG units for more than just “eye candy” you have to up the ante on range, hit points, dice rolls or cost. An example of this was the much hated Heavy Bomber of the Classic edition. It was hated because it gave a huge advantage to the player that owned the technology. In my experience it didn’t mean you won the game, that just my opinion. My point is that IF EVERYONE had had Heavy Bombers then who had the advantage?
If you power up, extend range, adjust cost, or add hit points to units that EVERYONE has or can purchase it doesn’t break the game. If everyone is paying the same price for the same unit it doesn’t break the game either.
So if we want Heavy Armor we have to have a unit to represent it. The JS2 would do nicely for the Allies. Then we have to give it some advantage. Double the fire power, hit points, and cost making it 12 IPCs. Wait! but why not just buy two tanks? Reduce the cost by 1-3 IPCs. It will have the advantage of being easier to transport etc…
I’m not using that as a hard and fast formula I’m simply using it as an example. Nobody has a “cornered” market because ANYONE could buy that tank and ANYONE could use or abuse it’s advantages. I’m sure many won’t like an idea like this for any number of reasons but I’d challenge someone to try it and see what happens.
More action, more battles, less waiting around watching everyone else play and less complicated.
Edit: I suppose my first paragraph could be ignored. LOL
-
Hi Toblerone77,
I was just trying to show on an empirical basis that there is some room to integrate in a balance scaled more units inside the known stats of ground units.
**There is at least 7 ways of modelling stats:- Attack factor
- Defence factor
- Movement of unit
- Cost of unit
- Special bonus when paired to another unit
- Double hit value (with or without repair capacity)
- Other special ability**
Of course, the more you subdivide Infantry, Artillery and Tank the more difficult to create a specific unit which worth the purchase and has his own strategical function inside the ground units.
To create 1 unit which defend @4 and cost more than 2 Inf., you can ask why bother buying this D4 unit? It is better to maximize defence with 2 hits and 2D2.
As you said:
@toblerone77:So if we want Heavy Armor we have to have a unit to represent it. The JS2 would do nicely for the Allies. Then we have to give it some advantage. Double the fire power, hit points, and cost making it 12 IPCs. Wait! but why not just buy two tanks? Reduce the cost by 1-3 IPCs. It will have the advantage of being easier to transport etc…
As a precise example:
1 Inf+ 1Art= A4D4M1C7, 2 units vs
Fast Heavy Tank (Panther) A4D3M2C7
This is the same cost, only 1 unit but you get a single punch A4 from 2 space-away, blitz, + bonus to TcB.However, it is less interesting to buy a Tiger from this strategical point of view:
Slow Heavy Tank (Tiger) A4D4M1C7, no blitz, give +1A to TcB when paired with.Then, maybe it is needed to give it 2 hits.
Then it becomes:
Slow Heavy Tank (Tiger) A4D4M1C7, 2 hits, no blitz, give +1A to TcB when paired with.But we should say that this unit cannot be repaired (unlike BB). After a second hit, it disappears from the board.
Then we have 2 very different units for the same cost of 7 IPCs. -
@Baron:
Here is a revised summary.
Inside Global 1940 system cost:
Mech Infantry OOBÂ Â A1D2M2C4, get +1A when paired with Art, can blitz with tank.
Armored Infantry A2D1M2C4, get +1A when paired with Art (even tank?), can blitz with tank.Light Artillery    A2D2M1C4, each give +1A to 1 Inf.    OOB Artillery
Medium Artillery  A3D3M1C5, each give +1A to 1 Inf.
Mobile  Artillery  A2D3M2C5, each give +1A to 1 Inf.Heavy Artillery   A3D4M1C6, each give +1A to 1 Inf.
Light Tank      A3D2M2C5, can blitz, give +1A to TcB when paired with.
Medium Tank (T-34) A3D3M2C6, can blitz, give +1A to TcB when paired with. Â OOB Armor
Fast  Heavy tank (Panther) A4D3M2C7, can blitz, give +1A to TcB when paired with.
Slow Heavy tank (Tiger) Â Â A4D4M1C7, no blitz, give +1A to TcB when paired with.Heavy Tank Destroyer A4D4M1C8, no blitz, destroy a tank on each “1” rolled.
What do you think of this scale increments in stats?
I don’t think your stats are bad.
-
However,
if I try to input this one (since there is a 1941 sculpt for it.)
Slow Heavy Tank (Tiger) A4D4M1C7, 2 hits, no blitz, give +1A to TcB when paired with.Raise the question:
7 OOB tank A3D3M2, 1 hit are they better than 6 Tiger A4D4M1, 2 hits ?A21D21M2, 7 hits vs A24D24M1, 12 hits
(or vs 6 Inf+ 6 Art= A24D24M1, 12 hits = 5% for OOB tank vs 95% survival for the Inf+Art).Is it a real balance match?
Without the 2 hits: it is 49% for OOB vs 45 % for Tiger chance of survivalMaybe the 2 hits for ground units required to destroy a damaged unit before damaging another instead of the regular take 6 damage on 6 Tiger before loosing 1 (as we will do with 3 or 4 BB in the same SZ).
This 2 options are clearly different:
A) after 2 hits, only 5 Tigers fire.
Maybe it is around 15% chance of survival for regular OOB Tanks.B) after 6 hits, still 6 Tigers fire.
And it is .2% chance of survival for regular OOB Tanks.You see, I’m thinking out loud…
-
Which one is a better buy:
7 OOB Tank A21D21M2C42, 7 hits vs 6 Panther tank (A4D3M2C7) A24D18M2C42, 6 hits?
75% for OOB on offence vs 21%
49% for OOB on defense vs 45% Panther on offence.Maybe this one is well-balance?
Of course 6 Panthers attacking A4 vs 6 Inf+ 6 Art= A24D24M1C42, 12 hits.
3.5% odds of survival for Panther vs 96%.6 Panthers D3 on defense, it is very awfull:
1% odds of survival for Panther vs 99%.The lesser units are as usual and intended by A&A system more able to survive a direct battle.
Maybe Panthers are still too weak on defense…
-
Baron you have good posts and ideas. However I’m not looking to create rules that are so complicated or intricate. This game gets really slow as it is. I’m willing to give away some historicity and some realism for fun and a session you can actually complete in a day.
Consider the fact that it took 4 Shermans to take out one Tiger. The US could simply churn them out as needed, and the Army basically knew how lethal The Tiger was hence three Sherman would basically play distraction while the fourth would try to get a lucky shot and disable the Tiger.
Even when we’re using “macro” vision mechanics of A&A, a Tiger division still out classes it’s medium tank division opponent greatly.
It’s not that I’m saying you’re wrong I just have a different idea. You seem to be looking to create the simulation A&A experience. I’m trying to go for the “I’m a married guy who doesn’t get to play a lot” beer and pretzels experience.
You and Flashman are probably more like minded than You and I. I don’t mean that to be rude it’s just we all want different things out of the game.
-
Baron you have good posts and ideas. However I’m not looking to create rules that are so complicated or intricate. This game gets really slow as it is. I’m willing to give away some historicity and some realism for fun and a session you can actually complete in a day.
It’s not that I’m saying you’re wrong I just have a different idea. You seem to be looking to create the simulation A&A experience. I’m trying to go for the “I’m a married guy who doesn’t get to play a lot” beer and pretzels experience.
You and Flashman are probably more like minded than You and I. I don’t mean that to be rude it’s just we all want different things out of the game.
I don’t see what is adding more complexity on ground units: because it is still the same A/D/M/C/ hits/unit and so forth.
What is adding time, is the time take to select units to invest in.
If you take time to pick every single and different sculpt, and want something more than just “eye candy”, you must come with some real difference between those units.
Isn’t it? -
Baron you have good posts and ideas. However I’m not looking to create rules that are so complicated or intricate. This game gets really slow as it is. **I’m willing to give away some historicity and some realism for fun and a session you can actually complete in a day.
Consider the fact that it took 4 Shermans to take out one Tiger. The US could simply churn them out as needed, and the Army basically knew how lethal The Tiger was hence three Sherman would basically play distraction while the fourth would try to get a lucky shot and disable the Tiger.**
Even when we’re using “macro” vision mechanics of A&A, a Tiger division still out classes it’s medium tank division opponent greatly.
It’s not that I’m saying you’re wrong I just have a different idea. You seem to be looking to create the simulation A&A experience. I’m trying to go for the “I’m a married guy who doesn’t get to play a lot” beer and pretzels experience.
It is also part of the game to bring to the battle, and on the battle board, those terrifying Tiger, so the enemy have some sense of fear of the presence of these Heavy Armor. :-D
-
@Baron:
Baron you have good posts and ideas. However I’m not looking to create rules that are so complicated or intricate. This game gets really slow as it is. I’m willing to give away some historicity and some realism for fun and a session you can actually complete in a day.
It’s not that I’m saying you’re wrong I just have a different idea. You seem to be looking to create the simulation A&A experience. I’m trying to go for the “I’m a married guy who doesn’t get to play a lot” beer and pretzels experience.
You and Flashman are probably more like minded than You and I. I don’t mean that to be rude it’s just we all want different things out of the game.
I don’t see what is adding more complexity on ground units: because it is still the same A/D/M/C/ hits/unit and so forth.
What is adding time, is the time take to select units to invest in.
If you take time to pick every single and different sculpt, and want something more than just “eye candy”, you must come with some real difference between those units.
Isn’t it?As for the Panther and Tiger I’d probably just give them the same set of stats for the sake of simplicity. No they aren’t the same tank but close enough on a macro scale. There are several light tanks I don’t really want to make stats for every light tank. Germany has two from HBG right now. The 35t and the Panzer II. I wouldn’t bother giving them different stats. I’m also not criticizing your work either. I just wouldn’t bother putting a repair feature on a heavy tank. I’d consider repairs “built-in” to the piece as we see re-supply is not modeled into the game. A damaged heavy tank would simply be a division reduced in strength rather than an actual damaged unit. Before someone mentions it I’d 86 the BB/CV repair rule.
Just out of curiosity do have the HBG units? Call it an intangible factor but when you have all the actual pieces in front of you set up on a board it does make a difference on how you view the game. The same intangible factor that occurs when your running a solo scenario and you hear that sound of the dice shaking versus a dice roller on a computer screen. You’ll think about it differently.
As for “eye candy”, it is really cool to set up the board with various mixtures of units. Your first turn you may place Panzer II’s on the board and as the game closes you might start placing Tigers and Me-262’s.
Honestly I’m curious as to where you come up with your ideas. Everybody plays different. Everybody started playing at different times and with different editions. I only mention this because many of the ideas you express have a more “hex and tile” gaming scenario. A more traditional war game flavor.
-
Just out of curiosity do have the HBG units?
Not actually, but I got the 1942 1st and 2e edition, 1940 Global, 1941 and the classic 1942(?) from Milton Bradley.
There is already different sculpt in it. Specially the Tiger in the 1941 edition.Honestly I’m curious as to where you come up with your ideas. Everybody plays different. Everybody started playing at different times and with different editions.
I played first on Milton Bradley.
Then I add the David Schwartzer World War II extension to Axis and Allies which introduced: destroyer escort, destroyer, cruiser, Hellcats and zero, 2 hits carrier and battleships.
So when I bought Spring 1942, I was already prepared to the new units.Most of my ideas in fact are picked inside the actual set of rules and mixing them in different ways.
Sometimes I bent them a bit, but when I do it, I don’t like it very much because it goes against simplicity and familiarity with some OOB rules.
So it drives me more to think deeper and find something inside the various rules already in use.
Sometimes I fall upon old posts of mine and even for me, I see how hard it is to read (the long ones) and understand them because it requires concentration and intense focus on a specific topic.
I think it is what happen when someone is reading a rulebook, at first it is easier but the more we read the more we have to stay focus on everything said.
Actually I’m just exploring these various units in hope of finding a way to introduce a balance heavy tank for the Tiger sculpt of 1941.
-
@Baron:
Just out of curiosity do have the HBG units?
Not actually, but I got the 1942 1st and 2e edition, 1940 Global, 1941 and the classic 1942(?) from Milton Bradley.
There is already different sculpt in it. Specially the Tiger in the 1941 edition.Honestly I’m curious as to where you come up with your ideas. Everybody plays different. Everybody started playing at different times and with different editions.
I played first on Milton Bradley.
Then I introduce the David Schwartzer World War II extension to Axis and Allies which introduced: destroyer escort, destroyer, cruiser, Hellcats and zero, 2 hits carrier and battleships.
So when I bought Spring 1942, I was already prepared to the new units.Most of my ideas in fact are picked inside the actual set of rules and mixing them in different ways.
Sometimes I bent them a bit, but when I do it, I don’t like it very much because it goes against simplicity and familiarity with some OOB rules.
So it drives me more to think deeper and find something inside the various rules already in use.
Sometimes I fall upon old posts of mine and even for me, I see how hard it is to read (the long ones) and understand them because it requires concentration and intense focus on a specific topic.
I think it is what happen when someone is reading a rulebook, at first it is easier but the more we read the more we have to stay focus on everything said.
Actually I’m just exploring these various units in hope of finding a way to introduce a balance heavy tank for the Tiger sculpt of 1941.
Ahhh I see. Yeah a lot of folks see G40 as really complicated and in a way it is, for a board game. I used to have some old war games from the 70’s and 80’s with much more complex rules. When I first played A&A we played usually one or two days a week all day and we used to have rules for weather, politics, etc… that kind of stuff. We thought about doing a “fog of war” game with two MB Classic editions. I do get where you’re coming from. I’m lucky if I can ever get a game of AA41 or 42SE every few months.
On another note you would probably like the World at War or Tide of Iron series you should check those out. They’re both different but they incorporate some of the elements you talk about.
Suggested Topics
