Save Italy Strategy

[Omega1759]

The obvious disadvantage of this strategy is that attacks on Soviets are made I3 / G4 instead of a G2 or I2 / G3. Since Italy did not handle Greece / Southern Europe, it will have a decent can opening force on the Eastern Front sufficient to take any territory (unless the russians make a stand) and having the Germans land their significant air force to prevent a counterattack. If there are no attractive targets on G4 (e.g, Russian Navy, bordering territories), then I believe Germany can reinforce the Russian territory(ies) captured in I3 (e.g., both Eastern Poland and Baltic States) without a declaration of war (thus collecting 5 IPC again?)

I like this though because the German airforce should be quite strong and a late declaration of war to Russia gives the 5 extra IPC to Germany multiple times, prevents Russia to do the middle east trick and prevents Russia from getting its other war NO.

If the German stack lead by repeated robust Italian can openers on an instoppable on it’s march to Moscow, then we should have this:

G4 (German stack in Baltic States with war on or not, if at War consider taking Karelia / Vyborg) - On R4, Russians need to abandon Leningrad (retreat to Archangel or total consolidation in Belarus or make a stand there)

On I4, Italians open belarus or take Leningrad.

On G5, Germans attack Belarus to reduce russian stack with superior firepower (and retreat if counterattack threat looms) or reinforce Italian belarus conquest.

On I5, assuming Russians fell back, Italians Open Smolensk

On G6, Germans reinforce Smolensk. (throughout this process, watch for ways to strat bomb russia with benefit of strong air force).

on G7 or G8 decisive attack on Moscow.

Waiting a bit to attack the Russians and save Italians troops for the can opening will lead to larger battles on the russian front or a planned retreat (which is good for Germany). This would create steady momentum for Germany (who can fight on their own terms, preserve their forces) and gradually weaken the Soviet union. If the outcome of the decisive battle in Moscow is in doubt, then just “go around it” and let germany create a steady flow of infantries and planes that slowly strangles the soviets while leaving options open on the Eastern front (e.g., strategic bombing, mechanized strikes supported by air force). This further complicates the US’s role to strike Italy.

The Italian buy on I1 was not determined, but I now think that 1 tank / 1 mech in Northern Italy is the right choice to the condition that at least 2 German fighters land in South Italy (better yet 3) to preserve some Italian air power (leaving tac bombers to cover Tobruk)

So because of this, I would adjust my first turn to this (shifting one bomber and one tac from 111, allowing for extra German fighters to land in South Italy instead of Tobruk). By taking the losses in SZ 97, this allows the German to inject 20 or 30 IPC in Italy’s economy and put the UK in further trouble. If UK chickens out, this German airforce (2 - 3 fighets and 1 tac in south italy + 2 Tacs in Tobruk), ensures that the UK leaves the med.

Build 2 fighters and 1 destroyer, Save 2
Take 106 with 2 subs (117 / 118) (87% win)
Take 91 with 2 subs (103/ 108) (85% win)
Attack 111 (BB, DD, CA) with 1 sub (124), 1 fighter (Norway), 1 fighter (Holland), 1 tac (Western Germany) 2 strat (Germany) 85% with scramble, 98% without
Attack southern France with 1 armor (Great Southern Germany), 1 tac (Germany) and 2 mech (Great Southern Germany) - 98% win
Take France Turn 1 (7 infantry, 2 mec, 3 artillery, 5 tanks) 97% win
Attack French Fleet with 2 fighters (Western Germany), 2 Tac (West Germany) (99%) 2 Tacs contnue to tobruk and one or 2 fighters land in south italy
Take Bulgaria with 1 infrantry from Romania / Finland with 1 infrantry from Norway
Take Yugoslavia (3 tanks, 6 infantry with 3 from great southern germany, 1 from romania, 2 from slovakia, 2 artillery from great southern Germany), 1 tac from Poland, 1 fighter from Slovakia (1 fighter continues to South Italy, Tac Continues to South Italy)

[Witt]

I like the sound of it. Does all hang on taking Moscow of course and US not retaking France if Egypt looks too hard.
Have you played it or only planned it?

[ghr2]

should totally test it out on tripple A

[Omega1759]

@wittman:

I like the sound of it. Does all hang on taking Moscow of course and US not retaking France if Egypt looks too hard.
Have you played it or only planned it?

I unfortunately don’t have enough time to play this game online, my time would be getting sucked into this too much. I’m prepping for my next in person game. I spend some time reading this forum and played the global version IRL a few times.

[Witt]

Same. Have a young daughter and my own restaurant, so play a few times a year with friends who live and work in different cities. Still plan and dream of changing the order of things. I love history. Nice talking.

[Omega1759]

On US re-taking France:

As long as Italy can balance out UK and send a couple Mech Infantry per turn in Russia, I don’t think the US would be that big of a deal in terms of taking France and keeping it. The supply line is fairly involved for the US and Germany should have enough IPCs / air force to hold out (in theory, in practice the air force can only be at one place at once). What I’m the most worried about is Italy not faring as well as expected and significant early US airforce knocking off fleets in the med to give UK some breather and / or altering the balance in Russia in later turns.

[Jennifer]

I’ve given up on SZ 97, PERIOD.  Even if Germany does not land a plane to scramble, I’d lose that fight.  I could have 98% odds in my favor, and lose that battle, so I dont fight it anymore.

As for saving Italy - Sea Lion does that every time.  I’ve never lost Italy after a sea lion SUCCESS (defined as both taking England and having enough left over to repush the Russians out again.)  I don’t think in 3.9 you can succeed in Sea Lion anymore.  Personal feeling.

Now, to save Italy, I think Japan has to pull America into the Pacific. It’s probably the only way.  W/O America, Germany can take on Russia, keep the British happy and defend Italy if necessary (those planes can literally defend a lot of territory, and put massive threat out if you do it right.)

One thing I’ve done is:  If America’;s buying fleet in the Atlantic, build transports in SZ 6 and threaten to take Midway, Wake, Hawaii and Alaska (or Aluetians.)  It’s better than the DEI, I feel.  Not financially (17 for Japan vs 24 for Japan in income differential) but because it puts America in a vice.  That’s if Americas going fleet heavy in the Atlantic anyway.

[Cow]

do people seriously liberate france?

[Witt]

H Jen. If US skulks by OZ Turn 2  and therefore threatens SE Asia or Carolines, are you still happy to look East as Japan? I can’t.

[Omega1759]

@Cmdr:

I’ve given up on SZ 97, PERIOD.  Even if Germany does not land a plane to scramble, I’d lose that fight.  I could have 98% odds in my favor, and lose that battle, so I dont fight it anymore.

As for saving Italy - Sea Lion does that every time.  I’ve never lost Italy after a sea lion SUCCESS (defined as both taking England and having enough left over to repush the Russians out again.)  I don’t think in 3.9 you can succeed in Sea Lion anymore.  Personal feeling.

Now, to save Italy, I think Japan has to pull America into the Pacific. It’s probably the only way.   W/O America, Germany can take on Russia, keep the British happy and defend Italy if necessary (those planes can literally defend a lot of territory, and put massive threat out if you do it right.)

One thing I’ve done is:  If America’;s buying fleet in the Atlantic, build transports in SZ 6 and threaten to take Midway, Wake, Hawaii and Alaska (or Aluetians.)  It’s better than the DEI, I feel.  Not financially (17 for Japan vs 24 for Japan in income differential) but because it puts America in a vice.  That’s if Americas going fleet heavy in the Atlantic anyway.

A threat of victory in the Pacific (Japan having taken DEI, Phillipines, Calcultta, Hong Kong) around J5 should force the US to get involved pretty seriously…

[Omega1759]

@Cow:

do people seriously liberate france?

I think it’s probably easier to prevent an Axis victory with conquering Italy or Egypt.

[Guest]

What do you guys think of this?

round 1:
Germany takes south France, clears french ships and lands planes in Rome (also z110, z91, z106, Paris, Yugo).
Japan builds airbase in Kwangsi and lands bombers there after taking Yunnan.
Italy builds nothing and takes Greece, activates Bulgaria.

round 2:  
Germany builds 3 subs, sinks UK fleet.
Japan declares war on Russia and flies bombers to Greece, swim in to Siberia.
Italy builds transports.

round 3:
Germany and Japan clear med.
Italy takes Egypt (with units from Italy not the reinforcements in Greece), declares war on Russia and walk in to East Poland

Russia is at war on the Pacific side turn 2 but not in Europe until round 4, so they can’t attack Iraq til turn 5.  On turn 4 Italy may take Transjordan and activate Iraq with tanks, then Germany lands a fighter or 2 from Rome.

[Jennifer]

@Omega1759:

@Cow:

do people seriously liberate france?

I think it’s probably easier to prevent an Axis victory with conquering Italy or Egypt.

Only if it’s UK / USSR that conquered them.

I’ve seen too many instances of America going heavy in the Atlantic only to see Japan win in the Pacific.  However, there are many instances of America virtually ignoring the Atlantic and the allies winning.

[Omega1759]

Found that the tacs to Tobruk were not legal and ended up fine tuning these moves a bit.

The fleet left in 112 needs a bit more protection in case the 91 cruiser survives, justifies spending 20 IPCs on subs and destroyers. Would like to buy a 3rd bomber to chase English fleet down Gibraltar, but seems too risky.

I’m hoping these moves will help the Italians significantly.

Build 2 subs, 1 destroyer and 1 fighter
Take 106 with 2 subs (117 / 103) (87% win)
Take 91 with 1 subs (108) (50% win)
Attack 111 (BB, DD, CA) with 2 sub (124/118), 1 fighter (Norway), 1 fighter (Holland), 1 tac (Western Germany) 2 strat (Germany) 97% with scramble, 99% without scramble (lose 2 subs or 1 sub / 1 fighter)
Attack southern France with 1 armor (Great Southern Germany), 1 tac (Germany) and 2 mech (Great Southern Germany) - 98% win
Take France Turn 1 (7 infantry, 2 mec, 3 artillery, 5 tanks) 97% win
Attack French Fleet with 2 fighters (Western Germany), 2 Tac (West Germany) (99%) 1 or 2 Tacs contnue to south Italy and 2 fighters land in south italy
Take Bulgaria with 1 infrantry from Romania / Finland with 1 infrantry from Norway
Take Yugoslavia (3 tanks, 6 infantry with 3 from great southern germany, 1 from romania, 2 from slovakia, 2 artillery from great southern Germany), 1 tac from Poland, 1 fighter from Slovakia (1 fighter continues to Tobruk, Tac Continues to South Italy)

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

I pretty much never go 110. I have to commit so much to outlasting the scramble that it seems better to increase my odds everywhere else.

[Darby]

@ Omega:

The Fighters from Western Germany can’t get to Tobruk after hitting the French fleet in 93 can they ??

[Cow]

I tree to save the italy stuffs, but when I do I fail to take moscow on G6 or G7… no good that one. Need russia die, italy go forth n battle. need put put men to protect europe early. most men for russia bought on g1-4, everything german must go russia.

[Jennifer]

Which is why the US and UK need to focus HARD on Germany for a few rounds.

To save Russia (and thus take Italy) I like to spend round 1 and 2 in the Pacific and 3 and 4 in the Atlantic (for the US.)  That gives you enough time to get your Pacific fleet to the Atlantic the same round you can conduct combat against the Axis.  Also, Japan expects you to buy in the Pacific, so you are not giving him a gift, you are just keeping him honest there.

This way, Round 3 you can land in Africa with Round 4 support.

England should be concerned with Aircraft.  This is a new position for me.  But Fighters can get to Russia to defend if needed, and they can also land to support American invasions.  Of course, I think this is the most ridiculous thing in the world, but it’s the rules:  America takes Normandy with 12-14 infantry and England drops 6 or 7 fighters there to hold it. (for example.)  This has always been the rule, and it’s a great way to exploit it.  However, you will be subject to CRD from Germany if you focus hard on planes. (this of course pulls IPC from Germany and won’t last too long once America’s in hard, but still - it may be a concern for you.)

As for Japan, I have found Russian, China, India (remnants) and Australia can usually slow them enough for America to help establish a beach head in Europe.  Just an opinion.

---

So what do you have to do for saving Italy?

I would say having Germany take and Italy reinforce is a major plus.  Focus on the Med, but ignore Africa once you have Egypt/Jordan. (Both for the NO and the retreat position - also prevents the Indian fleet from moving in.)  I would go heavy Mech/Armor for Italy (with hindsight) so I could race reinforcements to the German front.

Maybe a round 3 invasion of Russia.  I honestly do not see how you can take France and get your units in position sooner than that.  I could be wrong, maybe a round 2 invasion is the way to go?  Hell, maybe a round 1 invasion.  Can the Allies defend France enough to prevent a Round 2 sack of Paris if the Axis ignore France round 1?  I wouldnt want the planes to escape, but if it means saving 100 IPC in the taking of Moscow (pulled number out of my arse, no idea if it would save/lose anything) it might be worth NOT hitting Paris round 1.

I am, using this arguement, in an effort to take Moscow faster in the hopes that this saves Italy.  Maybe not hitting Paris means Italy is in more Jeapordy?  Well, if so, then you must do it, right?

No idea.  Just some ramblings and thoughts.

[Guest]

@Cmdr:

Maybe a round 3 invasion of Russia.  I honestly do not see how you can take France and get your units in position sooner than that.  I could be wrong, maybe a round 2 invasion is the way to go?  Hell, maybe a round 1 invasion.  Can the Allies defend France enough to prevent a Round 2 sack of Paris if the Axis ignore France round 1?  I wouldnt want the planes to escape, but if it means saving 100 IPC in the taking of Moscow (pulled number out of my arse, no idea if it would save/lose anything) it might be worth NOT hitting Paris round 1.

G1 invasion of Russia is tempting but there is a big flaw in it.  With Russia at war and no possible sealion threat, UK and french planes can fly over Norway and land in Karelia with Russia infantry and AA guns to protect them.  Round 2 they reinforce Belarus and/or West Ukraine to slow the Germans advance, eventually moving on to defend Moscow if the Germans even make it that far.  Russia loses the Murmansk NO but those fighters are worth it, and besides Germany will probably be putting a sub in z125 every turn anyway, no matter what UK tries to do about it.

G2 works well IMHO, but a popular approach is for Italy to walk into East Poland I2 and then Germans reinforce G3 without a DOW on USSR so they still get the wheat NO (and Russia is at war with Italy so no murmansk NO R3 if there is any axis sub in z125, even a German one!).  Another trick is to skip yugoslavia G1 and use it next turn to strafe/retreat mech and armor units from France to Hungary.

Defending Italy can be done by Germany using its airforce to degrade UK/french naval presence in the med and thereby allow Italy to get on its feet without blowing its navy early on.  The Italian NOs are key to building enough counterattack force to kill an allied landing in France while Germany gets the job done on the Eastern front.

[ghr2]

@Vance:

G2 works well IMHO, but a popular approach is for Italy to walk into East Poland I2 and then Germans reinforce G3 without a DOW on USSR so they still get the wheat NO (and Russia is at war with Italy so no murmansk NO R3 if there is any axis sub in z125, even a German one!).

Russia would still get the 125 NO cause they are at war in the europe theatre, and they can counter attack the italians where ever they went if they dont delcare war on germany.