What you say correspond s to my experience
All the Russian openings: For Begginers
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@vietgamer45 This category of the forum is about 1942 2nd Edition (issued in 2012), not about Classic (1984/86). Classic has its own category here:https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/category/6/axis-allies-classic
Different rulesets apply.
Welcome to the forum :slightly_smiling_face:
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@Panther, ah ok. Thank you. :)
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Thought this thread might do with an update, since Axis and Allies online is in early release and ranked play over there is using the Gencon set up provided by Larry a little while back. Currently that game also uses a few new rules that change the dynamics quite a bit, the main ones are no landing of fighters on friendly carriers, and no loading units onto friendly transports, which is pretty big esp. for sending fighters across the ocean in either direction.
Axis and Allies online also uses a “defense profile” where the defender sets their casualty priorities in advance, which means that unless you are playing live and switching profiles on the fly at the last minute, you have to choose each turn your general order of loss for units. This includes things like whether subs will dive or fight, whether fighters or carriers die first, things like that. So for example, you might have to choose between diving in sz53 with the USA sub, or fighting on defense with the British sub in sz41 (Aussie evac), since right now the defense profile is universal for a given turn, and not something you can choose battle per battle. There’s been talk that some of the rules like friendly carriers might be allowed or more nuanced defense profiles allowed, but for now with those rules in play, the opening conditions in the first round are a little different.
For Russia the main change from OOB is the Ukraine situation, because now Germany has their bomber located there. This also tweaks the German opening considerably depending on whether the bomber lives or dies. Germany is also down 1 sub in sz5 under the Gencon rules and the British cruiser is moved to the other side of Gibraltar so that also alters what Germany might try to do on their first turn.
sz16 is open by default in Axis and Allies online, and no bid is currently supported, so that’s also something to consider.
For the Russians the options for opening attacks are a bit more straightforward in gencon than OOB, since its basically a choice between going heavy into Ukraine or the big West Russia Wall all-in. Of the two I think Ukraine has the better payoff, but I’ve had some fun games using both openers, and some terrible games using both openers, since the swing is fairly wild and much comes down to how many hits the Germans put up in the first round of combat.
The Ukraine play is essentially the same as OOB, but bringing 3 tanks is more essential now since Germany has another fodder unit, and a clean strafe is somewhat harder to pull off.
For the West Russia wall, Szech and Evenki are somewhat more attractive as landing spots for the Russia fighters. For the Ukraine hit strat, its harder for Germany to get on Egypt early. So in either strat you might find some incentive to put your UK bomber in a territory with max reach into both theaters since India has 2 more inf in the Gencon set up, which makes an early hit on Japan a little simpler. Sometimes the Brits can find a clutch airblitz vs Japanese transports provided they have a landing spot, so Russia might find a reason to stack 4 or 5 units in Yakut. Keeping open a possible hit on Bury R2 can sometimes be nice, to open up a landing spot for British fighters or Bombers on UK2 that might be able to put the hurt on Japan if they fall short somewhere. Fighting east/south out of Evenki is a bit more viable too, provided Russia didn’t get stomped in their opener. So sometimes I see a fighter hanging in a more northern position for that sort of stuff. Its still pretty up in the air on R1 though, so many things could go wrong for either side that will determine the playpattern.
In general I think its more important than ever to make sure Russia has sufficient hitpoints in their first buy to deal with whatever might happen, because things can certainly get ugly with a quickness. And there’s definitely no bomber bid to lean on in Axis and Allies Online hehe.
One thing to keep in mind is that a full withdrawal from Caucasus gives Germany a nicer option to keep their battleship alive into the second round at least vs a British air strike, since it denies British aircraft a landing spot in Caucasus if the Germans can take it G1. Another possible reason to suggest hitting Ukraine heavy with the Russians, just so you can stack Caucasus safely and force the battleship to go elsewhere. The other German options for their med fleet aren’t too spectacular, especially if the Brits roll hot on defense somewhere, so unless they are planning a naval build to support it, there are some decent possibilities to kill the German Battleship with the Brits from the air, provided they don’t tuck up into sz16. There is also more pressure on Germany in sz7, so the Russian sub can sometimes make a big difference there now. In the defense profile for Axis and Allies online, its important to set one up for the Russian turn that has the sub remaining to fight, rather than dive, because every hitpoint counts. Making a clean sweep of the Allied Atlantic transports, or killing the British cruiser, while also ensuring that they win in sz7, and keeping the med battleship alive all at the same time is pretty tricky for Germany, so the chances that your friends the Anglo-Americans on the other side of the sea might survive with some more ships is higher. But this is also somewhat offset by the fact that USA can’t skip their fighters across the Atlantic on British carriers in A&AO, so the Russians still have a lot of weight to carry.
I’d be curious to hear from anyone who’s playing, any thoughts they might have about the Russian opener in A&A online, but that’s what I got so far.
Good gaming all!
bestElk
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I usually buy 4 and 3 if i don’t know my opponents skill level or i want a safe game. I never go 8 inf on R1!
I prefer to buy 1-2 tanks depending on situation ( R1 i would go with 2 due to extra pieces at start). I only attack UKR as a hit and run and take West Russia. I tried every combination of other ideas and they just DONT WORK!. Leave Karelia and use Caucasus to Pivot your entire position. Losing Caucasus for 2+ consecutive turns means you lose the game as Russia. It controls the entire approaches to Moscow from either direction. When you control it you must trade with Germany (take/retake) Ukraine and West Russia.The actual moves are 3 tanks 2 fighters plus all in range against Ukraine, then all else in range against West Russia. In NCM do not move sub with UK fleet! That sucker has been known to destroy an entire German fleet including 1 CV 2 fighters ( displaced), 3 AP, and 1 CA… because its happened to me!
In the far east EQUAL INFANTRY TO WHATEVER JAPANESE ARE IN MANCHURIA. The rest go west and 2 Infantry to Archangel.
Turn R2 depends entirely on how well or poorly Germany did on G1. If they did a suck out, you can buy less then 8 units, which means 1-2 tanks
Otherwise you need 8 “slots” to fill ( combination of addressing IPC so that you build 8 units, but not necessarily the same type)Lastly, never buy more fighters in the beginning portion of the game! You can buy them once Germany is going down.
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Trying to hold Karelia is fruitless. I have wiped out positions as Germany where they put everything they got including the fighters and i broke their position to a point where they could not recover even with great play.
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I usually go by the 7 hitpoints minimum rule of thumb, so if Russia is collecting 28 ipcs or more, then I will consider buying additional fighters. The received wisdom for light trades is that when you really need your Russian fighters and artillery to hit they will probably miss, and when you really need that Axis infantry to miss they will probably hit hehe, so an extra fighter may come in handy if you can afford it and it suits your playstyle. The problem, especially in rounds 3-5, is that if the Axis stack a big armor wall and start spreading fodder around, Russia can start hemorrhaging infantry and artillery pretty quickly just trying to block all the blitz paths on Caucasus or Moscow. If you put too much into the light territory trading, then it becomes harder to deadzone vs a big push. But sometimes you really need to prevent the Axis tanks from driving forward, and sometimes a bad dud on a light trade can upend your whole front line, forcing you to withdraw or hold when you’d rather advance. Ukraine, Arch, Belo all play that way on the German side, Kazakh or Novos on the Japanese side. Artillery gives you the most bang for your buck, clearly, but an extra fighter can also work if Axis aren’t already on top of you.
With 28 ipcs though you can also buy 8 inf + 1 artillery, or 4 inf +4 artillery, 6 inf + 1 art +1 tank, or even 7 artillery, which are all stronger all around buys than 6 inf 1 fighter. So it really depends on how many hitpoints the Axis are throwing at you and whether the British or Americans have any fodder/air to help you cover the core.
I find you can usually tell by the second or third round whether your Axis opponent is more inclined to consolidate and slam or spread their hitpoints around for the slow bleed. If they are consolidating then you probably want to do the same and spam artillery for a big wall so you can match their stacks, but if they are spreading heavier then you might consider aircraft so you can run more attacks per round and try to trade with less cost in hitpoints over the long haul. A good tell is watching to see whether your opponent is just trying to match you on the ground hitpoint for hitpoint in the air trades and being all conservative, or if they are sending more ground hitpoints than you have defending to try and push the fronts and be all aggressive in the trading game. So like say you have 1 infantry unit defending in Arch, if Germany is attacking with 1 inf +air they are probably the sort who trades light and favors consolidating. If they are attacking with 2 or more inf +air, then they might be the sort that favors the spread. You also want to see whether your opponent is conserving their artillery to deadzone, or if they are throwing it forward, because that is another tell for the opponent’s playstyle and priorities. So, say this time you have 2 inf defending in Arch, if Germany is attacking with 1 inf and 1 art + air, or just 2 inf +air and holding the artillery back to deadzone it might tell you more about who you’re playing against. Same deal keeping an eye out for the airblitz, like if you see that your opponent is willing to attack 2 of your defending infantry, with just 1 of their own + a shit ton of aircraft, that will tell you more about what you’re up against. If the opponent is particularly risk averse or prone to gamble, sometimes you can play off that, either by mirroring and trying to volley more predictably, or sometimes by doing the complete opposite to throw them off. Often you have to adapt to whatever the Axis are doing since they are usually in the driver’s seat, but if something went really well for team Allies, you might be able to dictate and get more brazen with your buys. Russia doesn’t have that luxury very often, but every now and again you can catch a nice break.
In the Gencon version, in A&AO at least, I think the choice for Russia is either come out swinging heavy in Ukraine if you’re willing to take a chance, or stackfest West Russia if you aren’t, but I haven’t had much success doing much else. Sometimes if the newer Allied player is struggling to manage the approaches to the center of the gameboard it can help to stick to a few hard and fast purchasing rules of thumb, for a couple rounds anyway, that might go something like…
For Russia buy more artillery and try to hold it back for a few rounds so you can build a big wall of it. Sometimes 3 artillery end up being a lot more useful than 4 infantry to manage your deadzones whatever your income level. Even if the instinct to stack infantry is strong, just trying to get whatever number of art pieces the remainder of ipcs will allow you to fit in when dividing out by 3s for max inf may not be enough to deal with a bigger Axis push.
For UK buy more fighters than you probably think you need hehe, mainly because they allow you to skip around between Europe and India more easily, and you will need a bunch to cover vs German airblitz of your eventual Atlantic transport fleets, to threaten an Airblitz vs Japanese transports from the center, or just to hold the line on Defense. W. Russia and Caucasus are optimal because they allow you to threaten Germany 3 moves away, while still being close enough to pinball around between India and the Canal, or China or the Eastern front. The more you have the easier it is to split for double duty.
For USA buy more transports and bombers than you think you need. If you buy a bomber per round for a few rounds, and don’t throw them away on early bombing runs, usually you can get something going before too long once you have a nice pile of them. Also when you transport your infantry around try positioning it where it can threaten two or more territories the following turn on amphib assault, instead of using them to trade territories right away. This is where having more transports and more bombers really comes in handy, because it forces the other player to split defense or possibly withdraw, without having to actually attack. Often you can stay in place and send the transports back for a repeating launch. When the infantry is already in place its easier to set up a stronger double punch with a 2 turn set up, rather than gunning early and allowing a round of delay for Axis to regroup before you can threaten again.
In general the more stuff you have in the middle of the map the better, so like a big party with everybody all up in Russia, because its usually easier to coordinate and find an opening from there than it is from either side.
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I have had limited success with the Ukraine attack, have to go all in though, strafe does no good imo. The thing that I can’t beat is heavy industrial bombing raids from both Germany and Japan as early as G1. This destroys Russia fast and they appear to never lose a bomber. Some losses are due to mistakes on my part, purchases, overaggressive play etc. Most seem to just be the result of the fact that Russia needs a bit of luck turn one, without that the game is instantly over. Fighters for sure with the UK, but I find myself gaining naval superiority to get the Brits going with the US, then turning to the Pacific and pressuring Japan. If not, Japan will waltz through India and Moscow while Germany builds 10 men a turn and trades comfortably with the UK and Russia. US turn one purchase, 1 CV, 3 destroyers. Does anyone have a better combo? I link up with whatever remains from the UK fleet in Morocco turn 2 then keep my USA fleet attached to wherever the UK fleet goes.
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Yeah Russia is really the most vulnerable to sustained bombing, even though Germany never really ran a strategic round the clock bombing campaign like that vs Russia during the war. Certainly Japan didn’t hehe. As Allies its harder to get the bombing game up and running. Frequently by the time you have enough bombers to smash Berlin every round, Germany is banking enough to repair and still drop like 8-10 inf a turn. And a bad run losing bombers can really set you back trying to get the edge for a big amphib assault on the German capital. For round 1 USA it depends for me on what’s left alive in sz11 or sz53. If no transports left in 11 I usually buy a pair so 1 CV, 1 DD, 2 transports, then either a tank or sub depending on what Germany has left. If transports left alive I’d stack destroyers. If USA was ignored then I buy bombers and a CV. But yeah I agree, a lot comes down to R1/G1
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Just found this thread, so figured I’d throw my two cents in the ring, since Allies are more fun to play than Axis in this version (even if they have a much harder time winning).
Under LHTR (AKA “Gencon 3.0” or whatever they call it in AAO), killing the German bomber is the linchpin of the entire Allied opening, as you need the following chain of events to occur:
- USSR kills Germany’s bomber in Ukraine R1.
- No Bomber for Germany = Germany can’t reliably kill Egypt G1.
- Egypt surviving = UK gets an extra FTR B1 for use against the IJN off DEI (SZ37)
- Extra fighter for UK against SZ37 fleet = UK trades its entire Pacific fleet to take down half the IJN B1.
- Japan losing half its navy = Their offensive momentum is totally halted, giving the Allies a solid amount of wiggle room to play the game.
This necessity, coupled with the necessity of taking West Russia R1, as it is the most important tile in Russia in terms of what it connects to, means that you can’t expect to hold Karelia. Thus, I go for the following opening:
Karelia: FTR -> Ukraine, rest -> W. Russia
Archangel: All -> W. Russia
Moscow: Tanks + FTRs -> Ukraine, rest to W. Russia
Caucasus: All -> UkraineDespite this, you can and may lose the Ukraine fight. However, due to the default AAO Defense Profiles (WHICH YOU CAN CHANGE IN THE SETTINGS BY THE WAY, PLEASE DO THIS) being terrible, Germany by-default will lose the Bomber last, which means that pulling out after killing the Bomber is not usually an option.
For the Siberia guys, there’s more flexibility with what you can do, but you at least want the Kazakh guy going to Szechwan, move the Ural guys to Archangel, move the Novosibirsk guy to Moscow and to consolidate the guys in Yakut/SFE/Bury. I like to stick them in Yakut, but you can go for Buryatia if you’re planning on a KJF for whatever reason.
After the opening, as Black_Elk said, the strategy depends on the ebb and flow of the game. Things like how Germany/Japan are playing, how dice rolls are going, etc. This determines whether you build 1-2 TANKs with your land units, or all INF/ART. I don’t agree with the notion that the Soviets should be buying FTRs ever. Leave the expensive units to USA/UK.
Finally, I personally find Strat Bombing worthless. Bombers are expensive and don’t pay for themselves until a point where the game has usually been decided one way or the other anyway. For the price of the Bomber you’re gambling IPC value on, you can buy 2 SUBs, 4 INF, 3 ART, or 2 TANK, based on your needs. All of these options are blatantly superior to a Bomber. The only thing that’s worse for you value-wise is probably a Cruiser, lol.
EDIT: I’m specifically talking about purchasing a BOMB. Bidding for one is perfectly acceptable due to how the bidding rules work. An extra BOMB in Russia’s opener gives you much better odds in Ukraine, and you then have the ability to keep the Bomber alive for other roles on both sides of the map.
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This worked rather brilliantly on the first go, mostly due to luck. Beat Ukraine with 3 tanks left, then proceeded to win on Sz 37 with 1 sub a Carrier and 2 fighters left lol. That was pure luck. He then attacked the USA Pacific fleet, leaving me enough to take out both the Carrier and Cruiser there with the USA, as well as the battleship two destroyers and transport in Sz 61 UK2, brought in 2 fighters to do so from India. This left him with no fleet worth mentioning. I guess I could go kjf, but think I’ll use the extra time in India to really push Germany.
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Don’t like taking UKR, Rather i hit and run. I value the 3 tanks et al with more value to USSR then killing a German Fighter/Bomber. Heck those tanks are 18, the two planes are 22. For USSR it is close to catastrophic only eclipsed by losing the two fighters ( which i have seen noob’s going after the German fleet on R1, or defending in Karelia). I dont like bombing either if you only got 1-2 Bombers. Bombers allow a player the “reach” necessary to keep the enemy honest. Also, the 4 hit unit seems to mean close to automatic hits and a proven killer of land, sea, and air…
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I think there is some confusion, I don’t strategic bomb, I was speaking of the Axis strategy to hit Russia from G1 on with Bombers from Japan and Germany. This makes Russia even more cash strapped and can significantly speed their downfall. It’s not a tactic I deploy, it’s one I’ve struggled to counter.
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On G1 you need that plus what is the point? LH rules are often used and USSR takes out the Bomber. If Germany still has one, its gonna kill more enemy IPC on G1 and its needed and not to be used like that especially if you only have ONE.
On G1 i only buy fleet and if its not LH setup, then i buy a 2nd Bomber. Bombing sucks unless out of desperation or you can overload the AA gun with 3+ planes.
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@DoManMacgee said in All the Russian openings: For Begginers:
Karelia: FTR -> Ukraine, rest -> W. Russia
Archangel: All -> W. Russia
Moscow: Tanks + FTRs -> Ukraine, rest to W. Russia
Caucasus: All -> UkraineExactly. and the sub does not stack with the UK fleet. Germany wont buy a Destroyer early in the game and that sub can do alot of damage…Latter
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The point for Germany being that with 2 Bombers and the luck to never lose one, and 2-3 from Japan, they can completely destroy Russia’s income. This takes away any opportunity to counter strike, or build a big stack on West Russia as with both Japan and Germany knocking at the door of Moscow and no money, they crumble fast.
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Japans bomber cant reach unless Godzilla will protect it after it lands. Japan needs it to take out Hawaii fleet ( along with other items). So Japan needs it to address the imbalance she faces to start the game economically. That only means to kill so many units that for a period of time at least, Japan can float and accomplish her goals in Asia and take the properties that will give her economic parity. J1 is about killing the units before UK/USA gang up (USSR too).
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@Imperious-Leader said in All the Russian openings: For Begginers:
Don’t like taking UKR, Rather i hit and run. I value the 3 tanks et al with more value to USSR then killing a German Fighter/Bomber.
I don’t like taking Ukraine either in a F2F game, but in AAO most people stick with the default “defense profile” which means you kind of have to take the territory if you want to kill the Bomber. Killing that Bomber impacts a lot more than the USSR Vs. Germany front, so I think losing the Tanks is worth killing the Bomber for.
I’ve already argued with you in a different thread about Karelia. Since we’re talking about LHTE/42.3/AAO/whatever, I agree with you that attacking Germany’s fleet with the FTRs/attempting to defend Karelia is pointless.
@Imperious-Leader said in All the Russian openings: For Begginers:
Exactly. and the sub does not stack with the UK fleet. Germany wont buy a Destroyer early in the game and that sub can do alot of damage…Latter
I do actually stack the sub with the UK Fleet, I just have it submerge and avoid combat so it can potentially pick off the Cruiser Germany leaves behind or Transport in SZ5 (if Germany didn’t buy navy G1) later.
@theskeindhu said in All the Russian openings: For Begginers:
The point for Germany being that with 2 Bombers and the luck to never lose one, and 2-3 from Japan, they can completely destroy Russia’s income. This takes away any opportunity to counter strike, or build a big stack on West Russia as with both Japan and Germany knocking at the door of Moscow and no money, they crumble fast.
I don’t agree with Japan doing SBRs. If you’re committing your Bombers to that they need to be based in one of the Chinese territories, which puts them too far inland to pose a threat to an advancing USN. I see a lot of Allied Players making the mistake of sending the USN directly towards Japan. They really should be camping out in the Solomon Islands, then striking at Borneo/DEI/Philippines. That way they can drain Japan’s income and potentially land in India to bail out to UK if Japan’s stack in Burma is getting too big.
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Got 40 some odd games clocked so far as Allies in A&AO, and that Russian sub defending in sz7 saved the British battleship in half a dozen of those games, saved the transport in a few more than that, and helped peel off a German fighter even more often. Even in games when Axis sent an extra sub from sz9. Just by being there it tends to make the opponent pull a sub off transport battles in sz10 or 11. So I think its a sound play sending the sub to defend.
Karelia remains indefensible same as OOB, but I agree Ukraine is a toss up (the whole first round is pretty dicey), but I find leaving the Bomber alive just gives Germany too many options, unless it was like a perfect strafe and the opponent’s defense profile was customized, and W. Russia went really well. I think its better to run the West Russia fight first, so you know what you’re dealing with. I think it defaults to whatever battle had the first combat movement into it, so you might have to manually click W. Russia if you want to run it first, to determine if a lucky strafe will even have any real pay off. If you can’t deadzone Karelia, because G put up a bunch of hits in W. Russia then its sort of fruitless to strafe anyway. Usually I just fight it out in Ukraine. Average is 2 tanks remaining, but I’ve seen that fight go way south more than a few times, so its certainly not a sure shot.
I think bombers are best used for fleet screening, but once you’re on the center even one solid SBR can have a huge impact on Russia’s ability to stack enough hitpoints to match what Axis can throw at them in a critical round. Better to wait until you have 3 or 4 to make it worth it though, that’s my feeling anyway.
The difficult thing with Gencon is that a lot of times a couple early fighter or sub exchanges going well or going poorly can tip the balance pretty dramatically for either side. The script on that one is more dicey than OOB for sure.
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@Black_Elk Gosh, 40!? I only have like 8 as each side post-placement games. No wonder I can barely stay in the top 100.
I should have mentioned the whole “resolve W. Russia first” thing in my other post, sorry. I thought that was just the standard operating procedure.
Also agree on Ukraine (and the opening turn in general) being very swingy. I’ve had things like the Ukr. Attack, the Attack on SZ2, Egypt, and the India Fleet Vs. IJN in SZ37 go extremely wonky and basically tilt the game in one direction or the other. In F2F tournaments bids usually fix this (either with an extra ART to Caucasus or an extra SUB to the India Fleet), but in AAO we don’t have that luxury.
Honestly, in AAO I haven’t had many games drag out long enough where SBRs would have helped. I’ve steamrolled most of my Axis games by Round 4/5, and as Allies the Axis have only really been getting within one tile of Moscow and sustaining their presence in games they were already going to win anyway.
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i got 580 hrs at it. Also, if you use 3 tanks and 2 planes and hit and run you remove any threat to Caucasus and West Russia. If you use Caucasus as the pivot, you keep knocking down Karellia/ and or threats against West Russia/Persia. Eventually, you want the pivot to move to Ukraine.
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