Chinese rural economy



  • Hey Folks,
    page 10 of the Pacific Rulebook (2nd Ed.) states that:
    If a Japanese industrial complex is built on a Chinese territory and that territory is later recaptured by the Chinese or liberated by another Allied power, the industrial complex is removed from the game.”
    So far, so good. (And very funny as we’ve discovered during our last game! 😄 )
    But what happens to other facilities like axis build airfields or ports in such a case?


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16

    On the same page, Hessian, it says: “If China captures a territory containing an air or naval base, China takes control of the base. It can use an operative AB to extend it’s fighter’s movement by one (but not to scramble it), but it cannot use a naval base or repair damage to any base. Of course other allied powers may use Chinese controlled bases normally”.

    Cheers
    PP


  • '15

    I think this has been covered elsewhere before, in fact I’m sure, but what about the last edge case: the chinese take Kwangtung that has had a mIC placed on it, whether by JP or UK or whomever else. What then?


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16

    If the Chinese take Kwangtung, teslas, it reverts to the British, so any factory / bases there are then the UK’s.

    The Chinese are allowed into Burma and Kwangtung even though they are not Chinese territories.


  • '15

    I left out the part where India had already fallen.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 '13 Moderator

    The Chinese can control it, if India is occupied. The IC remains and cannot be used by China.



  • Can the Chinese place unlimited inf/art in Hong Kong the turn they occupy it? I assume so?


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16

    Yes - as in any Chinese territory or Burma too.

    Always seems a hell of an advantage to China to me, but that’s how it is!


  • '15

    I thought china could only spawn units in originally controlled chinese territories that they control at the end of their turn… time to pull out the rule book.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16

    @teslas:

    I thought china could only spawn units in originally controlled chinese territories that they control at the end of their turn… time to pull out the rule book.

    Sorry - to clarify - if India is gone then China can own Burma and Kwangtung, as established slightly earlier in the thread.

    My last response built on that to the effect that they can then place units in Burma and Kwangtung at the end of their turn.

    Cal… says occupy a territory, which need not mean owning it, so in the case of occupying but not owning I was wrong.


  • '15

    It seemed to me that you might have been claiming that you could place new units in Kwangtung/Burma as China at the end of your turn. If you did not intend to mean that, then I misunderstood. If you did mean that, then it was indeed a wrong thing to say.

    Page 10 of Pacific rulebook:

    “New Chinese units can be mobilized on any Chinese territory that is controlled by China”
    “However, Kwangtung and Burma are special cases. Although they are not Chinese territories…”

    Either way, now I know for sure.

    edit-
    But I do not see this text quoted above:

    “If China captures a territory containing an air or naval base, China takes control of the base. It can use an operative AB to extend it’s fighter’s movement by one (but not to scramble it), but it cannot use a naval base or repair damage to any base. Of course other allied powers may use Chinese controlled bases normally”

    Am I not looking at the right book? Pacific 1940 2nd Ed.?



  • Hmm, the rulebook says the following:

    “New Chinese units can be mobilized on any Chinese territory that is controlled by China, including those captured in the current turn.”

    and

    “However, Kwangtung and Burma are special cases. Although they are not Chinese territories, Chinese forces can move into them.”

    Thus, since Burma and Hong Kong are not Chinese, China can’t place units there, even if they control them and India has been captured.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16

    @calvinhobbesliker:

    Hmm, the rulebook says the following:

    “New Chinese units can be mobilized on any Chinese territory that is controlled by China, including those captured in the current turn.”

    and

    “However, Kwangtung and Burma are special cases. Although they are not Chinese territories, Chinese forces can move into them.”

    Thus, since Burma and Hong Kong are not Chinese, China can’t place units there, even if they control them and India has been captured.

    I think both teslas and Cal… are quoting the same part of the rulebook here. Two sentences on from your rules quote there is another sentence which says: “China can even temporarily control them, but only if it recaptures them from the Axis while India is under Axis control.” I take that to mean that for as long as under China “control”, rather than merely occupied by Chinese forces, they are in effect Chinese territories and so eligible for placement of units. If you know for certain that I am wrong and you are both right then do tell me, so that I play the game correctly.

    If, however, this is a rule interpretation uncertainty, let’s get Panther’s diktat. 🙂

    Edit - Actually this is a similarity to France is it not? Until Paris is liberated other allies can mobilise in territories (with factories) they control in France. My head hurts!


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16

    @teslas:

    But I do not see this text quoted above:

    “If China captures a territory containing an air or naval base, China takes control of the base. It can use an operative AB to extend it’s fighter’s movement by one (but not to scramble it), but it cannot use a naval base or repair damage to any base. Of course other allied powers may use Chinese controlled bases normally”

    Am I not looking at the right book? Pacific 1940 2nd Ed.?

    Hi teslas

    In my Pacific 1940 2nd Edition rulebook it is paragraph 4 of “China Rules” on page 10. Is your rulebook different?

    Cheers
    PP



  • @Private:

    On the same page, Hessian, it says: “If China captures a territory containing an air or naval base, China takes control of the base. It can use an operative AB to extend it’s fighter’s movement by one (but not to scramble it), but it cannot use a naval base or repair damage to any base. Of course other allied powers may use Chinese controlled bases normally”.

    Cheers
    PP

    Sorry Private Panic, but in my version of the rules – A&A Pac 1940 2nd Ed.; downloaded from Axisandallies . org – there is no such passage. That’s why I’m asking. And it seams that teslas couldn’t find it either. But maybe there’s something missing…

    But anyway, since only ICs were mentioned in the rules, I’ve assumed that China could use these bases.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16

    Mmmm! I’ve PMed Panther about the differences in rule books.

    He might also help us with the different interpretations of unit placement in Burma / Kwangtung if “controlled” by China. 🙂

    Cheers
    PP


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 '13 Official Q&A TripleA Moderator

    @Private:

    Mmmm! I’ve PMed Panther about the differences in rule books.

    I’m afraid I cannot comment on the differences in the rulebook, as I did not know that two versions existed.

    Anyway it’s in the official FAQ:

    @FAQ:

    Q. What happens if China captures a territory containing an air or naval base?
    A. China takes control of the base. It can use an operative air base to extend its fighter’s movement
    range by one, but it cannot use a naval base or repair damage to any base. Of course, other Allied
    powers may use Chinese-controlled bases normally.

    @Private:

    He might also help us with the different interpretations of unit placement in Burma / Kwangtung if “controlled” by China. 🙂

    This is determined by the rulebook:

    @rulebook:

    New Chinese units can be mobilized on any
    Chinese territory that is controlled by China, including
    those captured in the current turn.

    Burma and Kwangtung are no Chinese territories, so China can never place units there.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16

    Thanks very much P@nther. 🙂


  • Official Q&A

    I try to make whatever little fixes I can in the rulebooks whenever I’m notified that there’s a new print run in the works (which doesn’t always happen).  These fixes are pretty much for clarity, and you won’t find anything in them that isn’t covered in the FAQs.  Generally, the downloadable rulebooks on the website are the most up-to-date versions.



  • Thanks everyone for your help!


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16

    Sorry to extend the thread after such helpful responses from P@nther and Krieghund, but 3 further thoughts:

    1. P@nther’s FAQ quote is slightly different to that from my rulebook, as the FAQ does not mention scrambling, which capability my rulebook says is not afforded to China through any AB it owns. Can I ask for clarity on that one please.

    2. Depending on that answer I am guessing that my rulebook is more up to date then than the one on the website, as it covers the captured AB or NB issue within the rules. If so, can we please update the rulebook on the website.

    3. Having discovered that my interpretation of China’s “control” of Kwangtung / Burma (in the event of India falling) was wrong, I now need to get my head around what “control” actually means. Presumably only that it gains the ipc value?

    Many thanks
    PP


  • '15

    3. Your idea of control sounded right. It was your idea of “Chinese territory” that seemed to have the problem I think?

    China can only spawn units in (1) Chinese territories (2) that it controls. If Calcutta falls, and China captures Kwangtung/Burma, they do absolutely control them (and gain the IPCs from them, and the (,in the case of China, limited) use of the facilities, and everything else control implies). That satisfies but one half of the requirement (2). They are not, however, Chinese territories–they are British territories. Only those territories with a Chinese emblem are Chinese territories, just as it is for every other nation in the game. Therefore one half of the above requirement (1) is not satisfied.

    I hope that helps, and I’m not just misunderstanding you!

    Edit-
    Maybe if your A&A game lasted for 60-120+ turns, you could add a houserule that the British use of Hong Kong, which, in our now drastically different timeline, ended in 1997, takes effect, and Kwangtung is again a true Chinese territory… you know… just… a suggestion 😛


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16

    Thanks very much teslas. That has helped.

    @teslas:

    Maybe if your A&A game lasted for 60-120+ turns, you could add a houserule that the British use of Hong Kong, which, in our now drastically different timeline, ended in 1997, takes effect, and Kwangtung is again a true Chinese territory… you know… just… a suggestion 😛

    Ha ha! My longest game (of 42.2) was 31 turns and then declared a stalemate. Clearly I lack sufficient stamina. 🙂


  • Official Q&A

    @Private:

    1. P@nther’s FAQ quote is slightly different to that from my rulebook, as the FAQ does not mention scrambling, which capability my rulebook says is not afforded to China through any AB it owns. Can I ask for clarity on that one please.

    China can’t scramble its fighter from an airbase because the fighter can never leave the territories that Chinese occupation is restricted to.



  • @Krieghund:

    I try to make whatever little fixes I can in the rulebooks whenever I’m notified that there’s a new print run in the works (which doesn’t always happen).� � These fixes are pretty much for clarity, and you won’t find anything in them that isn’t covered in the FAQs.� � Generally, the downloadable rulebooks on the website are the most up-to-date versions.

    Are you saying that the books available for download right now, are slightly different than the books I downloaded when 2nd edition first came out?

    Also, I’m going to be buying a copy of 1940 Europe and Pacific 2nd Edition next week, is there any way I can tell inside the rule book jacket if my copies are from the latest print run or not?.


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