If US lost the battle of Midway


  • @MrMalachiCrunch:

    I read somewhere (linked to from here I believe) that even if the entire Pacific fleet had been wiped out by mid 1942 it would have set the US back about 6-12 months only.

    Had the entire U.S fleet been destroyed the U.S would have taken the offensive in late 43-44.


  • @ABWorsham:

    @MrMalachiCrunch:

    I read somewhere (linked to from here I believe) that even if the entire Pacific fleet had been wiped out by mid 1942 it would have set the US back about 6-12 months only.

    Had the entire U.S fleet been destroyed the U.S would have taken the offensive in late 43-44.

    I agree.  The US was supposedly able to pump out carriers at the rate of one every six months.  I have heard three months. (This might have been light carriers though rather than fleet carriers.) However they would have needed five or six to feel comfortable sailing off to meet the Japanese fleet.  Also, when you have lost catastrophically, you tend to want to over-compensate before trying again, so the US might have wanted seven or eight carriers.  And if the Japanese had won, with no losses, you’d think they would have considered trying to bottle the US up against the West Coast rather than just sail away and hope the US simply gives up and leaves them alone.  If they had at least tried to hit Panama and damage the canal and struck shipyards on the West Coast, I could see late 1943 or even 1944 being the start of a new, major offensive.

    And, the Japanese might have built a couple of more for themselves too.  Of course Japan might have been stupid and built a bunch of Yamato’s instead.  Hitler didn’t start building Me-262’s when he first had the chance.  Nobody went all out when Sikorski showed off his helicopter.  So it is no guarantee that just because you win, you suddenly gain great wisdom and make all the right choices in the future.  But if the subject is “What if?” and you want to give a side the best possible chance, then Japan wins, bottles up the West Coast production, starts sending I-400’s to hit Panama, puts more subs in the Pacific and concentrates on bulking up its carrier fleet.  I still think the best they could hope for was buying time.  I really don’t see the US giving in and agreeing to terms.  But Japan could hope.  Maybe… if the US built a new fleet and lost that too.


  • @Epiphany:

    @ABWorsham:

    @MrMalachiCrunch:

    I read somewhere (linked to from here I believe) that even if the entire Pacific fleet had been wiped out by mid 1942 it would have set the US back about 6-12 months only.

    Had the entire U.S fleet been destroyed the U.S would have taken the offensive in late 43-44.

    I agree.  The US was supposedly able to pump out carriers at the rate of one every six months.  I have heard three months. (This might have been light carriers though rather than fleet carriers.) However they would have needed five or six to feel comfortable sailing off to meet the Japanese fleet.  Also, when you have lost catastrophically, you tend to want to over-compensate before trying again, so the US might have wanted seven or eight carriers.  And if the Japanese had won, with no losses, you’d think they would have considered trying to bottle the US up against the West Coast rather than just sail away and hope the US simply gives up and leaves them alone.  If they had at least tried to hit Panama and damage the canal and struck shipyards on the West Coast, I could see late 1943 or even 1944 being the start of a new, major offensive.

    And, the Japanese might have built a couple of more for themselves too.  Of course Japan might have been stupid and built a bunch of Yamato’s instead.  Hitler didn’t start building Me-262’s when he first had the chance.  Nobody went all out when Sikorski showed off his helicopter.  So it is no guarantee that just because you win, you suddenly gain great wisdom and make all the right choices in the future.  But if the subject is “What if?” and you want to give a side the best possible chance, then Japan wins, bottles up the West Coast production, starts sending I-400’s to hit Panama, puts more subs in the Pacific and concentrates on bulking up its carrier fleet.  I still think the best they could hope for was buying time.  I really don’t see the US giving in and agreeing to terms.  But Japan could hope.  Maybe… if the US built a new fleet and lost that too.

    You’ve made good points about America’s production advantage over Japan; as well as about how nations do not always choose the right production priorities.

    The story of the jet is an interesting one. In 1940 Goering slashed the number of engineers allocated to Germany’s jet development effort.

    A few years later, Germany had developed a guided air-to-surface missile. It used a test version of this guided missile to destroy a British warship in the Mediterranean. Goering lied to Hitler about this, and told him the British had jammed the missile’s guidance. He said the British ship had had to be destroyed by more normal means instead. Goering’s reason for this was his belief that Hitler was too fascinated with new technology, and needed to be steered toward tried and proven weapons instead.

    Despite Goering’s interference, Germany managed to begin producing small numbers of jet aircraft late in the war. There were two versions of jets, both based on the Me 262 airframe. One was an air superiority fighter; the other was a fighter bomber.

    Had the air superiority fighter been produced in large numbers, it could have defended German cities from massive Allied bombing raids. It could also have blunted the Allied air supremacy which existed over the (future) battlefields of France. Further, German air superiority on its eastern front was gradually slipping away. The air superiority Me 262 variant could have reversed that.

    On the other hand, there was the fighter-bomber version of the Me 262. A plane like this could deliver a payload to its target, and safely return, without the Allies being able to do a whole lot to stop it. (Except to attack it as it tried to take off or land.) As the Allied fleet headed to the Normandy beaches, large numbers of Me 262 fighter bombers could, had they existed, taken a significant bite out of that fleet. Each time that fleet shuttled back and forth between Normandy and Britain (necessary to supply the troops and add reinforcements), the Me 262 fighter-bombers would have taken another bite. Eventually, the Allies would have had no choice but to evacuate the invading forces.

    Of the two variants of the Me 262, Hitler favored the fighter-bomber over the air superiority fighter. Some have blamed his preference for interfering with the production of the air superiority variant. But it’s not clear how much, if any, delay his involvement actually caused. The truth is that Germany desperately needed large numbers of both variants of the Me 262, but was not in a position to produce significant quantities of either. The overwhelming majority of its aircraft production continued to consist of piston-driven aircraft.


  • @MrMalachiCrunch:

    I read somewhere (linked to from here I believe) that even if the entire Pacific fleet had been wiped out by mid 1942 it would have set the US back about 6-12 months only.

    Nimitz essentially agreed with this.  He felt that it would have really hurt the US if Japan had destroyed Pearl Harbor’s fuel tank farms and shipyards, to the point of prolonging the war by a year, but that the US would ultimately have prevailed anyway.  And I think it was Nimitz who described the battleships sunk at Pearl as “just old inventory” whose loss helped turn the US Navy into a modern carrier-based force.


  • The biggest advantage Japan would Have gotten from a victory at Midway is largely psychological. On the tactical I think they would have used the time to solidify their control over the South East Pacific with landings in Port moresby in Papua as well as the Solomon Islands, having their float plane base operational without any US interference. But these are largely minor accomplishment that wouldn’t have major far reaching effects on these theaters of operations(aside from increased pressure on Australia, but an invasion is extremely unlikely). The psychological advantage that there was next to no naval defense between the West coast of the US and the Japanese combined fleet would have been tremendous for Japan and its effect on the US should not be under-estimated. The panic this would have caused among the US population centers on the west coast would have had a slight economic effect, as well as creating a wave of refugees fleeing the area for fear of a Japanese attack. The bigger problem is the large number of aircraft design companies that were working on out of the west, like Northrop Grumman, that would have had their work relocated inland to protect them from Japanese attack and the disruption to production of newer aircraft, like P-51, that would have caused.


  • 24 essex class carriers that were under production guaranteed that the USA was going to win against Japan the question was how quickly.  The USN actually burned through there carriers quicker then the IJN once they were down to only Enterprise in 1943 but by the Marianas turkey shoot they had rebuilt an even larger force and had better aircraft (helldivers, hellcats).

    No Matter what Japan loses the great marianas turkey shoot.


  • Notice how quickly the Russian armies redeployed to Manchuria after Berlin fell ?

    Allied delays in the Pacific theater would have resulted in more Communism.

    Think of All Korea.
    And almost no Chinese revolution. 
    Maybe even Tibet, Nepal, India, Cambodia, Thailand, all having revolts against the western powers and easily getting the arms to push it through.

    Taiwan may have not been packed with as many Nationalist Chinese Kuomingtang forces and been more likely to revolt as well.


  • @Linkon:

    Notice how quickly the Russian armies redeployed to Manchuria after Berlin fell ? Allied delays in the Pacific theater would have resulted in more Communism.

    The timing of the Russian deployment to Manchuria had been worked out and agreed to with the Anglo-Americans at the Yalta Conference.  Stalin had promised that, after the eventual defeat of Germany, he would declare war on Japan ninety days afterwards – the time he needed to shift the required number of his troops from the European Front to the Asia-Pacific front.  And indeed, the Russian invasion of Machuria took place exactly three months after Germany surrendered.


  • The defeat at the Battle of Midway would not affect the project Manhattan  nor the YB-35 project. So in late 1945, atomic bombs were dropped anyway in Japan. And the USA would still have capacity to fight friction, such as the Solomon Islands Campaign. And the U.S. production was 41.7%, Germany 14.4%, 14.0% USSR, UK 10.2%, France 4.2%, Japan 3.5% and Italy 2.5%. And the seven powers 90.5% overall. Nearly HALF of world production!
    And the USA had: Nearly twice the population of Japan.
    Seventeen team’s Japan’s national income. Five times more steel production. Seven times more coal production. Eighty (80!) times the automobile production. Provided almost 50% of the trucks for the USSR, and more. The defeat at the Battle of Midway would have only delayed 6-18 months the end of the war.

  • '12

    I think the delay would have been at most 1 month if that.  Once the economic engine of the US was revved up their material/technical advantage guaranteed victory.  No research and development would have been affected, if anything, failure at Midway would cause the home front to work even harder!  A working atom bomb and a means of delivery would have been available on the same day or a few days sooner.  The US would probably still have about 100 or so carriers of various size on Aug 6, 1945.  That would guarantee they could own any island they required to get to Japan.  As it was, B-29 raids against Japan flown from the Marianas began in November 1944.  One could argue a loss at Midway delays bombing raids from the Marianas for several months but even if the delay was 6 months that gives the USAF 3 months to get the hang of bombing Japan from the Marianas before Aug 6th when a working atom bomb can be delivered as per history from there….

  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    A defeat at Midway, coupled with other defeats in the Pacific and Europe, MAY have made the difference.

    But certainly not alone.

  • '12

    The US produced more war material for the Pacific theater alone in 1943 than Japan did over the entire course of the war.  I don’t see how an American military disaster at Midway would do anything but extend the war.  As mentioned in an earlier reply, Japan had no real strategy for winning- just a plan for not losing via their island defense network.  Their only hope was that we would just give up, but that overlooks the spirit of American resilience seen in other wars like the Revolution, War of 1812, and the Civil War.  They misinterpreted pre-war American isolationism as an unwillingness to finish what other people started.


  • Right. No way Japan could even hope for anything more than extending the war. Japan needed to build up her power over many years, in order to have any chance.

    But the gamble was to attack the dutch oil and not trigger anything more than embargo and consolidate conquests at the expense of England. Japan wasted it’s good will in China prompting the embargo…China is worthless-what a waste of resources…Trading an oil embargo for Nanking was the worst decision since attacking Hawaii.

    Idiots.


  • Imperious Leader nailed the last comment.

    Japan entered the War with the West with 51 Army Divisions; however 27 where already in use in China. Thirteen of the remaining divisions were facing the Red Army. Japan was willing to head to war with the Allies with ten to eleven availiable divisions!

    Japan would quickly start recruiting from it’s 73 million population, but Japan kept the same habit of attacking the Allies with smaller forces.

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