Do all submarines have to submerge or does each submarine decide independantly?


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    It’s POLL time!

    The question is obvious, albiet ridiculous, but never the less it’s there.

    You have 4 subs, and are attacked by 4 cruisers.  1 of the subs is NOT your own.

    Many think that there is no PLAUSIBLE scenario for a person to submerge only SOME of thier subs.  However I have invented one.

    On one hand, A:  You want to take a pot shots at the cruisers with your subs for whatever reason.

    On the other hand B: you want to insure you have atleast ONE SUB left, to kill an unescorted transport (when it’s your turn) 2 sz’s away.

    So…

    To ensure that you get the transport you want, and be able to shoot at the cruisers, Can you submerge JUST one sub?
    And if not, It is assumed that your ALLY can submerge his sub, whilst you fight on?



  • I’m not sure what the rule is, but if it were my rule, it would be based on each individual sub making their own choice.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Agreed.

    That’s a white man’s rule.



  • I’d approach it the same way you’d approach scrambling aircraft:

    Scramble none, 1, 2, or 3 aircraft.

    You have the option of participating in a battle independently for each unit.



  • before any rolls the subs can submerge, its up to the defender to choose, so I would say one or two or three. Like scambling, thats just my opinion



  • As your first strike you choose to shoot or submerge.  If you shoot it is offensive, even if you are the one being attacked, because first strike preempts normal combat (i.e. any cruiser sunk will be removed before it gets to roll).  If you choose to submerge instead, you are avoiding combat by moving away (to below the surface) at a time when you have the option to shoot.  That makes submerging as first strike a retreat.

    When you retreat you have to do the same thing for all of the units; you can’t retreat some and continue fighting with others.  So I think all 3 have to do the same thing.  However, if there are 2 powers defending, then each power would get to choose what to do with their first strike, so one might submerge and the other fight back.  Call 1-800-Lawyers.


  • '15 Official Q&A '11 '10 Moderator

    Page 18 of Europe manual says
    “Attacking or defending submarines that choose to submerge are removed from the battle strip immediately and placed on the game board in the contested sea zone….”
    Later,
    “As long as there are attacking and or defending submarines and no opposing destroyers, this step is repeated during each round of combat.”

    Unless Krieghund says that the rule is different than the rulebook says, it appears quite clear that it is a sub by sub decision, before each round of combat (step 2 of the “General Combat Sequence” on page 18).

    No need to vote on opinions - if you want to know what the official ruling is, ask Krieghund.
    Looks to me like each sub decides each round of combat, and of course once it’s submerged, it can’t come back.


  • Customizer

    @Vance:

    As your first strike you choose to shoot or submerge.  If you shoot it is offensive, even if you are the one being attacked, because first strike preempts normal combat (i.e. any cruiser sunk will be removed before it gets to roll).  If you choose to submerge instead, you are avoiding combat by moving away (to below the surface) at a time when you have the option to shoot.  That makes submerging as first strike a retreat.

    When you retreat you have to do the same thing for all of the units; you can’t retreat some and continue fighting with others.  So I think all 3 have to do the same thing.  However, if there are 2 powers defending, then each power would get to choose what to do with their first strike, so one might submerge and the other fight back.  Call 1-800-Lawyers.

    I agree.

    I have always felt that it is basically a “Retreat” option, just for Subs. 
    If you do a retreat, you must retreat all of them or none of them.


  • TripleA '12

    Hmm… I feel that Submerging and Retreating are not one and the same because the (defending) submerged Submarines are still in the sea zone; they haven’t moved anywhere - not to mention that the defender can never retreat. So I don’t think we can treat Submerging the same as Retreating.

    In the case of attacking Submarines, they have the option of Submerging instead of firing immediately during the first combat round, and they can also Retreat instead of Submerging from round two onwards. However, if any of the attacking Subs choose to Retreat then they must all move back to the same friendly sea zone from which at least one of those units came (along with any other retreating surface warships).

    Therefore I believe that in either case (attacking or defending), each Sub would make its own choice as to whether it would Submerge or not. Say you were attacking with 3 Submarines, your options would be:

    A: Submerge either 1, 2 or 3 of them before the Opening Fire step of the 1st combat round.

    B: Retreat ALL 3 Submarines simultaneously before the 2nd combat round begins, OR Submerge either 1, 2 or 3 before the Opening Fire step of the 2nd combat round.

    😄 Repeat option B… etc.

    That’s what I think, but perhaps Krieghund could clarify?


  • '15 Official Q&A '11 '10 Moderator

    Is anybody reading page 18, where it’s covered in the rulebook?
    Any thoughts on my interpretation?

    Yeah, Krieghund can put the whole discussion to rest in a hurry.


  • Official Q&A

    It looks like the majority got it right.  See Gamerman01’s and Lozmoid’s posts above.



  • Good!  Thanks again to Krieghund.


  • '12

    Well, I really don’t like the wording of it in the rule-book, it’s not as unambiguous as I like, but again, computer programmers are an anal bunch.  I am surprised the voting was as one sided as it was but I can see it either way, that’s the problem for me.  The rules should not have to be submitted to an linguistics expert, it would be great to see an explicit mention of a partial sub fleet submergence while the rest carry on first shot attacking or defending.  I will sleep at night just fine until that ever occurs however!


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