XDAP2 PIT FIGHT GARL (Allies + 28) vs LA ARMADA INVENCIBLE (Axis)

[Gargantua]

Yeah, I can say I REALLY don’t like the use of rerolls as a forced “game mechanic” being used as an integrated part of the strategy.

Rerolls in the face of a bad or lopsided battle for fun is one thing, but this is something we did not consider.

Leads me to wonder that because Kamikazes are rolled seperately, that they would be a seperate reroll.

Don’t know what your thoughts are Karl.

[Gargantua]

I looked at the rulebook.

http://www.axisandallies.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Axis-Allies-Pacific-1940-Second-Edition.pdf
Page 16

“Kamikaze strikes are resolved before any combat begins”

It is viewed as a seperate entity.  Like if you strategically bombed a territory you were also attacking. and is listed in the same phase as Strategic Bombing.

Let’s see what the dice bring, the point may be moot, but i do believe the kamikes and the  battle are two seperated events.

[rubioton]

Ok Sir,

I said about reroll in the previous post and I didn’t, we have to see what happens first.

Full scramble and six kami over the Battleship. Max defense keeping the Dd till the end.

Cheers

[rubioton]

This is just a game and we wanted to have fun playing it.

[Karl7]

Well, by my count we have pretty high odds on winning, so not sure why you’d want to use a re-roll on that battle. In fact, I was worrying we’d have to use one!  :lol:

But given this is an important battle, I am sure if you use a reroll and it stops the taking of phi, then we’d counter with another reroll.    :evil:

I think Garg is right on the Kamikaze being a separate battle. Honestly, I’ve never used a re-roll in a multi-part combat, it’s an issue that never came up.  :-P

[Karl7]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.9

Game History

Round: 5

Purchase Units - Americans
            Americans buy 3 fighters, 4 infantry, 2 submarines and 3 transports; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Politics - Americans
            Americans takes Political Action: Political Action Allies To War With TrueNeutrals
                Americans succeeds on action: Political Action Allies To War With TrueNeutrals: Changing Relationship for British and Neutral_True from Strict_Neutral to War
                Americans succeeds on action: Political Action Allies To War With TrueNeutrals: Changing Relationship for UK_Pacific and Neutral_True from Strict_Neutral to War
                Americans succeeds on action: Political Action Allies To War With TrueNeutrals: Changing Relationship for ANZAC and Neutral_True from Strict_Neutral to War
                Americans succeeds on action: Political Action Allies To War With TrueNeutrals: Changing Relationship for Dutch and Neutral_True from Strict_Neutral to War
                Americans succeeds on action: Political Action Allies To War With TrueNeutrals: Changing Relationship for Chinese and Neutral_True from Strict_Neutral to War
                Americans succeeds on action: Political Action Allies To War With TrueNeutrals: Changing Relationship for French and Neutral_True from Strict_Neutral to War
                Americans succeeds on action: Political Action Allies To War With TrueNeutrals: Changing Relationship for Americans and Neutral_True from Strict_Neutral to War
                Americans succeeds on action: Political Action Allies To War With TrueNeutrals: Changing Relationship for Neutral_True and Germans from Strict_Neutral to Friendly_Neutral
                Americans succeeds on action: Political Action Allies To War With TrueNeutrals: Changing Relationship for Neutral_True and Italians from Strict_Neutral to Friendly_Neutral
                Americans succeeds on action: Political Action Allies To War With TrueNeutrals: Changing Relationship for Neutral_True and Japanese from Strict_Neutral to Friendly_Neutral
                Americans succeeds on action: Political Action Allies To War With TrueNeutrals: Changing Relationship for Neutral_True and Neutral_Axis from Strict_Neutral to Friendly_Neutral

Combat Move - Americans
            1 battleship, 2 carriers, 3 cruisers, 2 destroyers, 3 fighters, 1 submarine and 1 tactical_bomber moved from 54 Sea Zone to 35 Sea Zone
            2 artilleries and 2 infantry moved from Queensland to 54 Sea Zone
            2 artilleries, 2 infantry and 2 transports moved from 54 Sea Zone to 35 Sea Zone
            2 artilleries and 2 infantry moved from 35 Sea Zone to Philippines
            1 armour, 4 infantry and 1 mech_infantry moved from Queensland to 54 Sea Zone
            1 armour, 4 infantry, 1 mech_infantry and 3 transports moved from 54 Sea Zone to 66 Sea Zone
            1 armour, 4 infantry and 1 mech_infantry moved from 66 Sea Zone to Chile
            2 artilleries and 2 infantry moved from Eastern United States to 101 Sea Zone
            2 artilleries, 2 infantry and 2 transports moved from 101 Sea Zone to 91 Sea Zone
            2 artilleries and 2 infantry moved from 91 Sea Zone to Spain
            1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry moved from Southeast Mexico to 89 Sea Zone
            1 infantry, 1 mech_infantry and 1 transport moved from 89 Sea Zone to 91 Sea Zone
            1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry moved from 91 Sea Zone to Spain
            1 infantry and 2 mech_infantrys moved from Central United States to 101 Sea Zone
            1 infantry, 2 mech_infantrys and 2 transports moved from 101 Sea Zone to 89 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from Southeast Mexico to 89 Sea Zone
            2 infantry, 2 mech_infantrys and 2 transports moved from 89 Sea Zone to 91 Sea Zone
            2 infantry and 2 mech_infantrys moved from 91 Sea Zone to Gibraltar
            2 bombers moved from United Kingdom to Spain
            1 bomber moved from Eastern United States to Spain
            1 bomber moved from Eastern United States to Spain
            1 bomber moved from Eastern United States to Gibraltar
            1 submarine moved from 26 Sea Zone to 16 Sea Zone
            2 fighters moved from 26 Sea Zone to 16 Sea Zone

Combat - Americans
            Japanese scrambles 3 units out of Philippines to defend against the attack in 35 Sea Zone
            Kamikaze Suicide Attack attacks 1 battleship owned by the Americans scoring 1 hits.  Rolls: 1,3,6,6,4,6
                Units damaged: 1 battleship owned by the Americans
            Battle in 16 Sea Zone
                Americans attack with 2 fighters and 1 submarine
                Japanese defend with 1 destroyer
                Americans win with 2 fighters and 1 submarine remaining. Battle score for attacker is 8
                Casualties for Japanese: 1 destroyer
            Battle in 35 Sea Zone
                ANZAC loiter and taunt; Americans attack with 1 battleship, 2 carriers, 3 cruisers, 2 destroyers, 2 fighters, 1 submarine, 1 tactical_bomber and 2 transports
                Japanese defend with 5 carriers, 1 cruiser, 1 destroyer, 3 tactical_bombers and 2 transports
                Units damaged: 3 carriers owned by the Japanese
                Units damaged: 1 carrier owned by the Americans
                Units damaged: 2 carriers owned by the Japanese
                Americans win, taking 35 Sea Zone from Japanese with 1 battleship, 2 cruisers and 2 transports remaining. Battle score for attacker is 40
                Casualties for Japanese: 5 carriers, 1 cruiser, 1 destroyer, 3 tactical_bombers and 2 transports
                Casualties for ANZAC: 1 fighter
                Casualties for Americans: 2 carriers, 1 cruiser, 2 destroyers, 2 fighters, 1 submarine and 1 tactical_bomber
            Battle in Philippines
                Americans attack with 2 artilleries and 2 infantry
                Japanese defend with 1 airfield and 1 harbour
            Battle in Spain
                Americans attack with 2 artilleries, 4 bombers, 3 infantry and 1 mech_infantry
                Neutral_True defend with 6 infantry
                Americans winAmericans win, taking Philippines from Japanese with 2 artilleries and 2 infantry remaining, taking Spain from Neutral_True with 2 artilleries, 4 bombers, 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 12
                Casualties for Neutral_True: 6 infantry
                Casualties for Americans: 2 infantry
            Battle in Chile
                Americans attack with 1 armour, 4 infantry and 1 mech_infantry
                Neutral_True defend with 2 infantry
                Americans win, taking Chile from Neutral_True with 1 armour, 4 infantry and 1 mech_infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 6
                Casualties for Neutral_True: 2 infantry
            Battle in Gibraltar
                Americans attack with 1 bomber, 2 infantry and 2 mech_infantrys
                Italians defend with 1 harbour and 2 infantry
                Americans win, taking Gibraltar from Italians with 1 bomber, 2 infantry and 2 mech_infantrys remaining. Battle score for attacker is 6
                Casualties for Italians: 2 infantry

Non Combat Move - Americans
            2 bombers moved from Spain to United Kingdom
            2 bombers moved from Spain to Morocco
            1 bomber moved from Gibraltar to Morocco
            1 destroyer moved from 106 Sea Zone to 104 Sea Zone
            1 carrier moved from 101 Sea Zone to 91 Sea Zone
            1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Western United States to 91 Sea Zone
            2 destroyers moved from 89 Sea Zone to 91 Sea Zone
            3 submarines moved from 26 Sea Zone to 6 Sea Zone
            1 destroyer moved from 26 Sea Zone to 25 Sea Zone
            2 fighters moved from 16 Sea Zone to 25 Sea Zone
            1 carrier moved from 26 Sea Zone to 25 Sea Zone
            2 aaGuns moved from Western United States to Central United States

Place Units - Americans
            3 transports placed in 101 Sea Zone
            4 infantry placed in Central United States
            3 fighters placed in Eastern United States
            2 submarines placed in 10 Sea Zone

Turn Complete - Americans
            Americans collect 58 PUs; end with 58 PUs total
            Objective Americans 2 Outer Territories: Americans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 63 PUs
            Objective Americans 4 Philippines: Americans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 68 PUs
            Objective Americans 3 Defense Obligations: Americans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 73 PUs
            Objective Americans 1 Homeland: Americans met a national objective for an additional 10 PUs; end with 83 PUs

triplea_38084_Ame5.tsvg

[Karl7]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.9

Game History

Round: 5

Purchase Units - Chinese
            Trigger Chinese Artillery Supplies: Chinese has their production frontier changed to: productionChinese_Burma_Road_Open
            Chinese buy 2 artilleries and 4 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat Move - Chinese
            2 infantry moved from Kweichow to Anhwe
            1 fighter moved from Yunnan to Anhwe

Combat - Chinese
            Battle in Anhwe
                Chinese attack with 1 fighter and 2 infantry
                Japanese defend with 1 infantry
                Chinese win, taking Anhwe from Japanese with 1 fighter and 2 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
                Casualties for Japanese: 1 infantry

Non Combat Move - Chinese
            1 infantry moved from Kweichow to Hunan
            1 fighter moved from Anhwe to Yunnan
            1 artillery moved from Kweichow to Yunnan

Place Units - Chinese
            2 artilleries and 4 infantry placed in Yunnan

Turn Complete - Chinese
            Chinese collect 16 PUs; end with 16 PUs total
            Objective Chinese 1 Burma Road: Chinese met a national objective for an additional 6 PUs; end with 22 PUs

triplea_38084_Chi5.tsvg

[Karl7]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.9

Game History

Round: 5

Purchase Units - Chinese
            Trigger Chinese Artillery Supplies: Chinese has their production frontier changed to: productionChinese_Burma_Road_Open
            Chinese buy 2 artilleries and 4 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat Move - Chinese
            2 infantry moved from Kweichow to Anhwe
            1 fighter moved from Yunnan to Anhwe

Combat - Chinese
            Battle in Anhwe
                Chinese attack with 1 fighter and 2 infantry
                Japanese defend with 1 infantry
                Chinese win, taking Anhwe from Japanese with 1 fighter and 2 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
                Casualties for Japanese: 1 infantry

Non Combat Move - Chinese
            1 infantry moved from Kweichow to Hunan
            1 fighter moved from Anhwe to Yunnan
            1 artillery moved from Kweichow to Yunnan

Place Units - Chinese
            2 artilleries and 4 infantry placed in Yunnan

Turn Complete - Chinese
            Chinese collect 16 PUs; end with 16 PUs total
            Objective Chinese 1 Burma Road: Chinese met a national objective for an additional 6 PUs; end with 22 PUs
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Japanese to Japan: 1 fighter
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode

triplea_38084_Chi5.tsvg

[Karl7]

Ok here is the turn.

I’d say look at the dice for the phi before deciding for reroll.  The US didn’t roll all that well.  In fact, I think the battle came out average even w/the only 1 kamakaze hit.

But if you reroll and block the landing, we will reoll and so on.  :-D

[JuanSpain]

Gents, we agreed on full battle LL rerolls.

We wrote the following: “Full battle rerolls (including AA, intercept, etc)”

On this we agreed (please read initial posts in the thread, I just copied).

The Phi battle rerooll uses 1 LL reroll token for all the battle, including kamis, it is one step of the philipines battle, like AA or intercept in other battles.

Average in this battle means us saving around 3 units, so we will use our second reroll token  here, and if you want another LL afterwards you could do it because you have 2 remaining also, allthough I think has no sense, because the reroll is allready LL.

We will wait your comments before continuing.

[Karl7]

@JuanSpain:

Gents, we agreed on full battle LL rerolls.

We wrote the following: “Full battle rerolls (including AA, intercept, etc)”

On this we agreed (please read initial posts in the thread, I just copied).

The Phi battle rerooll uses 1 LL reroll token for all the battle, including kamis, it is one step of the philipines battle, like AA or intercept in other battles.

Average in this battle means us saving around 3 units, so we will use our second reroll token  here, and if you want another LL afterwards you could do it because you have 2 remaining also, allthough I think has no sense, because the reroll is allready LL.

We will wait your comments before continuing.

huh, rerolls are LL?  Did we agree to that?

I am fine w/reroll for the total battle including Kamikazes.

[Karl7]

If rerolls are LL then the game is probably over.

[Karl7]

I guess I wasn’t paying attention on the RR.

[Karl7]

Ok, I see we “agreed” to LL rerolls.  Ha, oh well. I guess I forgot.  :-P  In the future, I will never agree to LL rerolls.  What’s the point of a luck then?  :lol:

Let me talk to Garg and see if we don’t just throw in the towel on it.

[JuanSpain]

Yes, rerolls are LL, it is written very clearly.

We believe you when you say that you did not consider it when you decided this attack. We did not understand why you were doing it.

So you can redo your entire USA turn if you wish.

Is that better?

[Karl7]

@JuanSpain:

Yes, rerolls are LL, it is written very clearly.

We believe you when you say that you did not consider it when you decided this attack. We did not understand why you were doing it.

So you can redo your entire USA turn if you wish.

Is that better?

Ha, I guess that’s better than throwing away the game!  :-P

Let me talk to Garg about it.  What if we just don’t do that attack?

[Gargantua]

Karl - that is a -very fair- offer by them.  This was our mistake from rules interpretation.

Using LL as a forced strategic component is something we will have to consider as a tool against our honourable adversaries!  Seems a great way to punish the German airforce.

So please Use the PHI battle units for something else! And with a better understanding - we can all move forward.

Might be prudent to just redo the entire turn?  If no china changes than maybe just leave it as is.

[JuanSpain]

You decide gentlemen.

It is understandable that given PHI was the biggest attack of your turn, all your turn would be different if you don´t do that one.

[Karl7]

How about this:

1. we just re-move the units that attacked Phi– including combat moves for those units only (I don’t think we’ll do any other combats though)

2. redo all NCMs necessary.

How does that sound?  Jesus, LL re-rolls are awesomely powerful!  Basically it guarantees any major battle will be won by the more powerful force.  :lol:

K

[Gargantua]

Proceed as you see fit Karl!