Thank you for the advice!
Maybe there should be an “Axis and Allies following the rules of war” game.
G40 w/Vichy&Free France - work in progress, now mostly final. suggestions plz :)
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Thanks for the input folks!
Good point on FIC and Madagascar.
I admit, some liberties were taken for playability’s sake (the objectives for example), and the entire idea is (as in the title) a work in progress.
The Free France China-esque income/placement idea still works with FIC and Madagascar under Vichy control. As does the garrisoning/tribute income idea when Japan walks into Vichy FIC. They would revert to Free France if the Allies ever liberate them as with the rest of the French zones.
I would presume that the French DD off Madagascar would become Vichy as well?
Debating taking the initial Free France infantry spawn in FEA from 1 to 2 with this change.
Also, debating dropping the Vichy objective from 5 IPCs to 4… (it was 6 in its first testing run in answer to the Burma Road amount). Still running with the cruiser survival thing until someone suggests something that sounds more interesting.
As it plays now, it gives the Allies a target to gun for, the Vichy and Italians something to protect, as it’s fairly easy for the Allies to end it forever. As for the name… the name “L’Irremplacable” is a tongue-in-cheek joke (French for “the Irreplaceable” :wink: ). The “Vichy Pride” name is gone though… I was scratching for something, but the new name sounds more apt (in French). I think you’ll agree.
So… with changes, see below.
All starting the instant that Paris falls… the following immediately happens:
Vichy France Spawns
- Vichy France is an Axis power
- All remaining mainland France territories immediately convert to Vichy control
- On the Europe board, the following convert to Vichy control: Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Syria, FWA, FCA, Madagascar.
- On the Pacific board, the following converts to Vichy control: FIC
- French ships in the Med and off Madagascar convert to Vichy control
- Vichy France National Objective: “Delires de Pertinence” - at the end of Vichy’s turn, if the cruiser “L’Irremplacable” survives, Vichy France gains 4 IPC.
- Vichy capital = S France (mIC converts to MIC)
- Restricted production capabilities:
- Air… cannot produce aircraft
- Sea… TR, SS, DD only - Tribute:
- an Axis power to “garrison” land units in a Vichy territory claims tribute worth 1/2 that territory’s IPC value, rounded up. (example: Germany garrisons troops in S France (worth 3 IPC). Vichy gets 2 IPC, and Germany ALSO gets 2 IPC while Germany has troops there) - Vichy France disbands upon the liberation of Paris, never to rise again… all Vichy French territories/units immediately revert to Mainline France
Free France (DeGaulle)
- Free France remains with the Allies
- Free France National Objective: “Vive La Liberte” - At the end of Free France’s turn, if they have three territories or more in Africa, they receive 3 IPC.
- Upon the fall of Paris, the following territory come under Free French control: FEA
- French navy in English Channel are Free French
- French units in London are Free French
- spawn 2 inf in FEA upon the fall of Paris (DeGaulle movement)
- NO production… they purchase/place units as the China mechanic
- Vichy territory liberated by the Allies reverts to Free France
- when Paris is liberated, Vichy is disbanded, and Free France regains it’s status as Mainline France, and regains its pre-fall production capabilities
Adjusted Turn Order
Germany
USSR
Japan
US
China
UK
Italy
ANZAC
Vichy France
Free France -
J’aime! Finally! I even have my name in it! Excellent. Time to prepare my men for Equatorial Africa! We must show our disloyal comrades our power! Destroy l’irreplacable cruiser!
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Gotta admit, those rules are pretty cool. I especially like: ““Delires de Pertinence” - at the end of Vichy’s turn, if the cruiser “L’Irremplacable” survives, Vichy France gains 4 IPC.”
Too bad there is no way to do that in XML (that i know of).
Also, small point: New Habrides should remain Free French for historical reasons.
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so are these rules finalized, is it something the whole community could get on board with?
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@Young:
so are these rules finalized, is it something the whole community could get on board with?
I have tried it many times and it is pretty well balanced but I give three infantry to start in FEA. Italy gets a nice little boost In the Mediterranean but has it hard taking Egypt with French mechs constantly going there.
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I generally like the ideas you have. I’m having a really hard time getting behind a NO just for a cruiser surviving though. All I keep thinking about is having the Bismarck and Yamato should have the same effect if a French cruiser gets something like that. I understand trying to find an NO for them to use, but as I said, I myself am having a hard time grasping that NO being a cruisers survival.
Also, what does this do to German naval potential in the Med? I know many don’t do it, but I usually build a few subs and a transport out of Southern France. I know others us Yugoslavia for that naval base, but I’ve never wanted to spend the money on a naval base when one is already available (obviously I’m pro Germany taking Southern France over Italy, but that’s another topic :-D). Anyways, this would seem to be something that could greatly weaken the Axis, in the sense that the Allies will know there’s essentially no larger threat in the Med. Maybe that’s your goal, I don’t know, and I’m not necessarily against it given most people’s belief that the out of box game heavily favors the Axis, I’m just curious on your thoughts.
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I’m having a really hard time getting behind a NO just for a cruiser surviving though. All I keep thinking about is having the Bismarck and Yamato should have the same effect if a French cruiser gets something like that. I understand trying to find an NO for them to use, but as I said, I myself am having a hard time grasping that NO being a cruisers survival.
I concur. I made a similar point in my post of December 12, in which I said that in my opinion a gain of 5 IPCs for the survival of a cruiser sounds too high. The new name for this national objective, “Delires de Pertinence”, seems oddly enough to reflect this concern because it could be translated as “delusions of relevance.” In other words, it seems to be asking “Why would the survival of a cruiser be relevant to France to a degree sufficiently large for it to be viewed as a national objective on the same scale as (to pick another 5-IPC NO for comparison) 5 IPCs per territory if Axis powers control India (Calcutta), New South Wales (Sydney), Hawaiian Islands (Honolulu) and/or Western United States (San Francisco)?” And as Chris Henry notes, if the survival of a cruiser has that much strategic importance to one country, why wouldn’t the same be true for other warships (especially bigger and more valuable ones) belonging to other countries?
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is there any way I’m this rule-set for Germany to take direct control over Southern France once Vichy-France has occurred? Historically, after Allies launched Operation Torch (landing in North Africa) in 1942, Germany occupied Southern France in violation of the Armistice. The Vichy French scuttled the fleet at Toulon and disbanded its armed forces. Seems like there should be a way for that to happen if you’re gonna include a Vichy-France rule set?
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Thanks all for the commentary.
Actually, Chris and CWO, I came up with a replacement for the Vichy NO. :) Hopefully it will be a bit better. I like the concept anyway.
First a couple other changes. The factory in S France NO longer automatically converts to a MIC. It remains a mIC. BUT, the Vichy can pay to upgrade it as per normal rules.
If they do, the aircraft build restriction goes away and their NO kicks in. (they still cannot build larger ships than DDs though)
“Delores de Pertinence” - Vichy France gains 5 IPC if they control an operational MIC.
This is untested as yet, but presents Vichy with some interesting choices. Ability to build fighters and bombers and 5 IPC, vs spending money to shore up European shores as it were.
Also remember the term “operational”. The Allies can shut off this NO if they bomb the factory into rubble, making it a potential money sink. Also a spot to move AA guns into if you’re a German or Italian player wanting to garrison the place.
But, to answer YG, it’s getting close to finalized. Just gotta test the recent changes a bit more.
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Chris, with regard to potential to weaken the Axis, I kinda disagree.
The addition of the Vichy takes a huge weight off the Italians to hammer the British.
While yes, the Germans would have to find another place to build subs in the Med due to non-control of the S France factory, the Vichy taking the burden of stocking the Normandy coast etc with cannon fodder allows Germany to use that money elsewhere.
At least in test games that I’ve done…
Or, you could just hit Normandy and S France on G1, strafe Paris in force, and let the Italians have sloppy seconds on I1. But that would be more detrimental than good for the Axis, IMHO. Leaving Vichy Africa etc no method to self sustain… and, frankly, against the spirit of the idea of having Vichy in the game in the first place.
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Interesting. As I said, I obviously have not played your version, so you’d know better than I, but I was just curious on your thoughts on that.
I’ve had versions where I still allowed the Germans to build naval units out of Southern France, but that would count towards the unit max that Vichy could build there as well.
I’m curious, and maybe I missed this earlier in the thread, so sorry if I did, but what happens to the Axis NO of holding Southern France/Greece/Egypt/Gibraltar? Does this just automatically count still or did you remove this NO?
I’m also curious if you’ve considered allowing Free French units to build in England as well, as sort of a add-on to the China spawn rule?
It does look interesting. I may have to try it. Though as CW Marc and myself pointed out, I may change the cruiser NO. I might do it more as a “if Vichy controls at least X amount of their overseas territory”. Maybe three, with North Africa being the reasonable three to choose to hold. It would make them want to make sure it’s garrisoned to keep that NO alive.
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I’m not sure i see the point of adding a Vichy-France mod for ‘greater historicality,’ while omitting anyway for Germany to take direct control of southern france (i.e., to violate the armistice and forfeit its benefits). That was, after all, the historical outcome of the whole Vichy France episode. It should at least be possible in any mod that seeks to simulate the Vichy France aspect of the war, IMHO
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Interesting. As I said, I obviously have not played your version, so you’d know better than I, but I was just curious on your thoughts on that.
I’ve had versions where I still allowed the Germans to build naval units out of Southern France, but that would count towards the unit max that Vichy could build there as well.
I’m curious, and maybe I missed this earlier in the thread, so sorry if I did, but what happens to the Axis NO of holding Southern France/Greece/Egypt/Gibraltar? Does this just automatically count still or did you remove this NO?
I’m also curious if you’ve considered allowing Free French units to build in England as well, as sort of a add-on to the China spawn rule?
It does look interesting. I may have to try it. Though as CW Marc and myself pointed out, I may change the cruiser NO. I might do it more as a “if Vichy controls at least X amount of their overseas territory”. Maybe three, with North Africa being the reasonable three to choose to hold. It would make them want to make sure it’s garrisoned to keep that NO alive.
Actually - I did change the cruiser NO, but you may have missed the post about it. :)
Actually, Chris and CWO, I came up with a replacement for the Vichy NO. :) Hopefully it will be a bit better. I like the concept anyway.
First a couple other changes. The factory in S France NO longer automatically converts to a MIC. It remains a mIC. BUT, the Vichy can pay to upgrade it as per normal rules.
If they do, the aircraft build restriction goes away and their NO kicks in. (they still cannot build larger ships than DDs though)
“Delores de Pertinence” - Vichy France gains 5 IPC if they control an operational MIC.
This is untested as yet, but presents Vichy with some interesting choices. Ability to build fighters and bombers and 5 IPC, vs spending money to shore up European shores as it were.
Also remember the term “operational”. The Allies can shut off this NO if they bomb the factory into rubble, making it a potential money sink. Also a spot to move AA guns into if you’re a German or Italian player wanting to garrison the place.
Also, a potential strategy option that just dawned on me is that Vichy could conceivably build an mIC in FIC to pump out infantry/etc as well into SE Asia fight, aiding the Japanese (if you so choose)… I had also considered a Vichy Syria mIC build, but my buddy saw that in our test games and squashed Syria ASAP. But, that was before the FIC correction was made. (thanks BTW)
As for the Axis NO involving control of S France etc, Vichy counts as an Axis power, so no disruption there.
The Free French option to build in London is an intriguing idea that hadn’t occurred to me. My view I guess is that the French units in London were more refugees than anything, and that the Brits were having enough trouble finding their own men to fight. Whereas the African spawn guys are part of DeGaulle’s resistance growing. Maybe a limit of one infantry a round option in London (French expatriates supportive of DeGaulle?) could be workable.
The German “commandeering” of production capacity idea is interesting as well… I would say that if another Axis power is garrisoning the Vichy territory with the factory in question, they could produce one unit there a turn (but only of the types that the Vichy is capable to produce - eg. no ships bigger than DDs, and no aircraft unless the Vichy have upgraded their factory in S France)
I should do another update post rolling up the ruleset as it currently stands with the NO change, and potentially the commandeered production and London expatriate options.
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Actually - I did change the cruiser NO, but you may have missed the post about it. :)
Sorry! I must have missed that entirely!
I’m not sure i see the point of adding a Vichy-France mod for ‘greater historicality,’ while omitting anyway for Germany to take direct control of southern france (i.e., to violate the armistice and forfeit its benefits). That was, after all, the historical outcome of the whole Vichy France episode. It should at least be possible in any mod that seeks to simulate the Vichy France aspect of the war, IMHO
I play where once the Allies invade North Africa (or if they attack Southern France first I guess), the Axis have the opportunity to break the armistice and take the territory for themselves. It may be a bit different though because of the rules that I’ve used in the past. I don’t want to hi-jack the thread, but I had a rule where Axis units were not allowed to be stationed in Vichy territory or Vichy would declare it an act of war. When the Allies land in North Africa, I role a die for each Vichy unit, 1-3 they turn to Free French, 4-6 they stay Vichy and fight the invasion. Once that happens, I allow the Axis to attack Vichy territory, so that they don’t have to sit back and wait for the Allies to take Vichy essentially uncontested.
You would need to have any sort of reason to break the armistice in Aldyn’s rule set here, and I don’t necessarily see a reason to off the top of my head.
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FWIW, I was really impressed with Aldyn’s house rule for Vichy and Free French forces. Indeed I ordered a set with both roundels and light blue Free French Infantry from HBG and tried a couple of plays (Europe 40 2.0 only) with them and find that this makes much enhances the feel of play around the med and allows Italy a more direct option against Egypt. I even like the NO rule applying the French Med cruiser, as it means Vichy is incentivized to greatly prize and protect their fleet as both factions did historically. Speaking of HBG units, I wonder if one-hit early war battleship might be a better fit for the Vichy med fleet?
Under the IC NO, I’ll guess that the US will land in Morocco and be in position to SRB it, before it could be put to much use under the new rule so maybe a 4IPC cruiser rule is a better fit, especially if FIC and Madagascar start as Vichy?
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Here is a suggestion for Germany attacking Vichy:
Germany may only attack Southern France after which the following takes place:
Vichy units in southern France and the Mediterranean are destroyed immediately.
All other Vichy join Free France. -
That sounds about right
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So this rule seems to highly benefit the Axis, right? What is the balance for the Allies? Also, when France is liberated, do they get the 12 IPC build bonus - or is that removed?
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@Carolina:
So this rule seems to highly benefit the Axis, right? What is the balance for the Allies? Also, when France is liberated, do they get the 12 IPC build bonus - or is that removed?
Benefit, yes. Highly? I wouldn’t go that far. The Vichy can be both a help and a hindrance to the Axis, depending on how they are used/abused.
The Allies in return get a faction modeled after China (Free France) that can be crucial in the fight for Cairo, in addition to being a general thorn in the side of the Axis.
As for when France (Paris) is liberated, the Vichy government disbands, existing Vichy territories and units revert to mainline France, and rejoin the Allies. If Paris falls again, after being liberated, Vichy doesn’t rise again - France functions from that point as any other power who lost their capital.
The one-time free 12 IPC worth of units upon the liberation of Paris stands as in OOB.
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Vichy can actually be quite a liability to the Axis if the Allies go straight for Paris. If they manage to take Paris, even for a part of a round, all the work an Axis player put into the Vichy would switch back to the Allies for the rest of the game.Which… in trying to prevent a potential Paris strike, Germany would be forced to spend resources that would otherwise go to stomp the Russians.
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How many posts do I need before I can post test-game photos?
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