• Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    I don’t know about you guys, but I’ve slain my fair share of Punes for humanity.


  • @Gargantua:

    I don’t know about you guys, but I’ve slain my fair share of Punes for humanity.

    Not really sure what this means, but if you say it bettered humanity I support it.  :-)


  • I’m torn between Napoleon, Lee and Rommel.  I voted Napoleon but it’s so close for me that my answer may change from day to day.


  • Thanks for bringing a life supported poll some life!


  • Well, actually, the first Punic War was one fought over Sicily. The main battles of the first were fought at sea - essentially, whilst Carthaginian influence in Spain was limited (certainly little military expansion prior to Hamilcar’s arrival)  the first was a conflict of two nations separated by the sea over an island. The Second was still one in which the sea separated part of their empire from Rome - Sicily was desperately fought over, and so was southern Italy with Hannibal attempting to control the sea route by capturing ports.

    The period of time where Hannibal was employed in fighting Rome was entirely from Carthaginian holdings in Spain. The army was trained from Spain and the planning and execution of the campaign for the 2nd Punic War came from Spain. It was not fought across any ocean. The entirety of the fighting with Hannibal came from the overland route into Italy by land and only by land. It was not the case that Hannibal fought raging sea battles or even sailed on various ships like some admiral. The exception to this was the battle of Lilybaeum which was the only sea battle. But all the major battles were fought from or by land routes again directed from Spain. It is entirely disingenuous to characterize the campaign with Hannibal as some “war across the ocean”


  • The Carthaginian senate made decisions from Carthage, they sent armies to Spain, to Sardinia, Sicily and to Italy from Carthage. Of course, they raised armies in Spain too (two of which made it to Italy from the land route), some of which were shipped to Africa in preparation for naval invasions. The decision in 216 BC to have Hasdrubal march to reinforce his brother was decided in Carthage, not Spain (in fact, he was fairly surprised by the decision, and urged the senate to reinforce Spain if he were to leave, which they did, twice, once before he left, and once after his heavy defeat at the Battle of Dertossa in 216/early 215 BC against the Scipio brothers!)

    I never meant the second was a war upon the seas, (there were precious few naval battles during the war as you rightly pointed out -though Lilybaeum was not the only one - there was a couple in Spain, one of which is recorded in the only fragment we have of Hannibal’s biographer Sosylus) and of course, there was plenty of coastal raiding from both Roman and Carthaginian fleets, but essentially, much deployment came from Carthage during the war, across the sea after Hannibal’s initial invasion from Spain.

    It is entirely disingenuous to ignore the importance of the med during the war, and the fact that most strategic decisions for the war were made in Carthage (generals largely had control over their own theaters, such as Hasdrubal in Spain, and Hannibal in Italy, but overall, the important strategic decisions were made by the senate at Carthage, which they adhered to). As I said, there was a land route, obviously connected from Iberia to Italy, but the sea still played a major part in the contribution of the war (dictating much of Hannibal’s strategic policies in capturing ports in southern Italy), and that there was separation from part of its Empire, coincidentally, its head (the senate) separated by the Med. � �

    Hannibal’s campaigns were conducted across the land route, where he actually received more supplies and manpower on the Italian peninsular than Spain for the majority of the war, but looking at the Carthaginian war effort as a whole, I can understand the ‘separated by the sea’.


  • I never meant the second was a war upon the seas, (there were precious few naval battles during the war as you rightly pointed out -though Lilybaeum was not the only one - there was a couple in Spain, one of which is recorded in the only fragment we have of Hannibal’s biographer Sosylus) and of course, there was plenty of coastal raiding from both Roman and Carthaginian fleets, but essentially, much deployment came from Carthage during the war, across the sea after Hannibal’s initial invasion from Spain.

    But the only time Hannibal comes up is the 2nd Punic War, but that conflict was by far conducted on land from land, and not any war “across the oceans”. It was not the case that Hannibal had logistical support by sea. Before he began the war, he prepared from Spain and got no supplies delivered by sea. The reason why i bring this up is because in a discussion of Hannibal, one poor student tried to argue that the war where he fought was largely this “war across the ocean” when it could not be more different.  Only part of Carthage was across the sea, part of it was not and Hannibal fought from what he developed in the Iberian peninsula.


  • @Imperious:

    But the only time Hannibal comes up is the 2nd Punic War, but that conflict was by far conducted on land from land, and not any war “across the oceans”. It was not the case that Hannibal had logistical support by sea. Before he began the war, he prepared from Spain and got no supplies delivered by sea. The reason why i bring this up is because in a discussion of Hannibal, one poor student tried to argue that the war where he fought was largely this “war across the ocean” when it could not be more different.  Only part of Carthage was across the sea, part of it was not and Hannibal fought from what he developed in the Iberian peninsula.

    Hannibal’s campaigns was largely one from land, but he was not the only general nor was his the only theater of war. I’m looking at the whole of Carthage’s war effort, and much of that was directed from Carthage and Africa, as I mentioned earlier, many armies were prepared there and sent to various theaters of war) though he did receive logistical support from Carthage at least once when admiral Bomilcar brought him cavalry, elephants and supplies in 215 BC at Locri, and of course, before the war, where he brought over Africans to Spain. His main logistical support came from the Italian peninsular. I also believe he’d have continued to receive funds and supplies from Carthage too, as ancient sea power could not prevent this completely (and we hear of many occasions of Hannibal sending word back to Carthage, or to Sicily, which obviously would have gone by ship).

  • '12

    markdienekes,  good luck in your debate with IL on this topic.  IL is well versed in this and every topic, he had a degree in history from Stanford where they teach that Hannibal was born in Turkey.

    IL says:
    Quote

    It was ( the 1st and 2nd Punic wars) where Hannibal the General born in Turkey ( not Spain or Carthage) commanded an army dispatched from part of the empire in what was to become Spain in an attack against Rome.

    IL, you claim Hannibal the General was born in Turkey?  Can you cite your sources please?

    My Masters in History from Stanford says it. It is common knowledge and i don’t do your homework.

    My assertion always was that Carthage was primarily an African power, that Italy was primarily a European power.  That wars and battles are two different things.  That the war was between two powers separated by a ocean sea and that yes most of the battles occurred between armies that were both on land and in Europe for at least a few days or more before the battle commenced, ie no amphibious assaults.  I still don’t see any of these premises as being false but shrugs.

    3……2…1…and…right on cue


  • @MrMalachiCrunch:

    markdienekes,  good luck in your debate with IL on this topic.  IL is well versed in this and every topic, he had a degree in history from Stanford where they teach that Hannibal was born in Turkey.

    Thanks, I am well versed on this topic myself (but not much else, hehe).

    I’ve actually listened to some of the Stanford lectures on Hannibal, and some of it is quite good, but Patrick Hunt makes quite a few mistakes in regards to the military aspect of the Second Punic War, particularly on the nature of Carthaginian armies and the roles of it - for example, he keeps referring to Numidian cavalry as ‘heavy’ cavalry. If you can track them down, they are still worth listening too as it is packed with good information.

    I haven’t heard that he was born in Turkey, however, I have heard that he may have been buried there, but then that was also where he died (in Libyssa). I imagine Hannibal was born in Carthage. But that is going a bit off-topic! :D


  • I enjoy the topic of the Punic Wars, so this discussion has been a real treat.


  • Agreed Worsham. We are lucky to have Markdienekes’ knowledge of the subject.

  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Wow… so Napolean Bonaparte won the Poll.

    Interesting.


  • I agree with Garg. Crunch, this is an example of trolling behavior I find distasteful.

    markdienekes,  good luck in your debate with IL on this topic.  IL is well versed in this and every topic, he had a degree in history from Stanford where they teach that Hannibal died in Turkey.

    Troll much?

    Crunchwrap posts:

    Carthage was indeed across the ocean and that is from where the attack originated from sans his European allies.  Most of Frances big battles were not far from its borders excluding of course the Africa campaign and the Moscow defeat.

    Across the ocean? For somebody to not know the difference between a sea and the ocean says quite alot about you. But i guess we can blame that on that brain injury you have?

    Crunch, turning this into a forum to lash out at IL is shameful quite frankly.

    Garg is correct.

    I agree with Garg 100%

    Let me say that Garg is correct ok?


  • Hehe, they look tied at the moment, 8 for 8! Two good examples of military histories best losers across the eons.


  • Just to back up my previous posts, these are just some of the passages in Livy that reveal a number of naval operations and landings of forces from Africa to the various theaters during the war, which clearly prove it simply wasn’t just one fought from land to land from Spain to Italy.

    In the meanwhile the news was brought to Carthage that things had gone badly in Spain and that almost all the communities in that country had gone over to Rome. Mago, Hannibal’s brother, was preparing to transport to Italy a force of 12,000 infantry, 1500 cavalry, and 20 elephants, escorted by a fleet of 60 warships. On the receipt of this news, however, some were in favour of Mago, with such a fleet and army as he had, going to Spain instead of Italy, but whilst they were deliberating there was a sudden gleam of hope that Sardinia might be recovered. They were told that "there was only a small Roman army there, the old praetor, A. Cornelius, who knew the province well, was leaving and a fresh one was expected; the Sardinians, too, were tired of their long subjection, and during the last twelve months the government had been harsh and rapacious and had crushed them with a heavy tax and an unfair exaction of corn. Nothing was wanting but a leader to head their revolt. "This report was brought by some secret agents from their leaders, the prime mover in the matter being Hampsicora, the most influential and wealthy man amongst them at that time. Perturbed by the news from Spain, and at the same time elated by the Sardinian report, they sent Mago with his fleet and army to Spain and selected Hasdrubal to conduct the operations in Sardinia, assigning to him a force about as large as the one they had furnished to Mago. (23.32)

    The army sent to Sardinia was defeated there (Livy, 23.40) and shortly afterwards, a naval battle took place in which Hasdrubal was defeated by Titus Otacilius Crassus (23.41) as Hasdrubal was returning to Africa.

    Very few were influenced by Hanno’s speech. His well-known dislike of the Barcas deprived his words of weight and they were too much preoccupied with the delightful news they had just heard to listen to anything which would make them feel less cause for joy. They fancied that if they were willing to make a slight effort the war would soon be over. A resolution was accordingly passed with great enthusiasm to reinforce Hannibal with 4000 Numidians, 40 elephants, and 500 talents of silver. (23.13)

    But they did not remain quiet long, for just after this battle an order was received from Carthage for Hasdrubal to lead his army as soon as he could into Italy. This became generally known throughout Spain and the result was that there was a universal feeling in favour of Rome. Hasdrubal at once sent a despatch to Carthage pointing out what mischief the mere rumour of his departure had caused, and also that if he did really leave Spain it would pass into the hands of the Romans before he crossed the Ebro. He went on to say that not only had he neither a force nor a general to leave in his place, but the Roman generals were men whom he found it difficult to oppose even when his strength was equal to theirs. If, therefore, they were at all anxious to retain Spain they should send a man with a powerful army to succeed him, and even though all went well with his successor he would not find it an easy province to govern. (23.27) (this passage is relevant to understand the one below)

    Although this despatch made a great impression on the senate, they decided that as Italy demanded their first and closest attention, the arrangements about Hannibal and his forces must not be altered. Himilco was sent with a large and well-appointed army and an augmented fleet to hold and defend Spain by sea and land. As soon as he had brought his military and naval forces across he formed an entrenched camp, hauled his ships up on the beach and surrounded them with a rampart. After providing for the safety of his force he started with a picked body of cavalry, and marching as rapidly as possible, and being equally on the alert whether passing through doubtful or through hostile tribes, succeeded in reaching Hasdrubal. After laying before him the resolutions and instructions of the senate and being in his turn shown in what way the war was to be managed in Spain, he returned to his camp. (23.28)

    Himilco, who had been for a considerable time cruising with his fleet off the promontory of Pachynus, returned to Carthage as soon as he heard that Syracuse had been seized by Hippocrates. Supported by the envoys from Hippocrates and by a despatch from Hannibal in which he said that the time had arrived for winning back Sicily in the most glorious way, and by the weight of his own personal presence, he had no difficulty in persuading the government to send to Sicily as large a force as they could of both infantry and cavalry. Sailing back to the island he landed at Heraclea an army of 20,000 infantry, 3000 cavalry, and twelve elephants, a very much stronger force than he had with him at Pachynus (24.35)

    After Marcellus’ departure from Sicily a Carthaginian fleet landed a force of 8000 infantry and 3000 Numidian horse. (26.21)

    In regards to strengthening Hannibal’s brother Mago’s position in northern Italy:

    To Mago they sent not only instructions but also 25 warships, a force of 6000 infantry, 800 cavalry and 7 elephants. A large amount of money was also forwarded to him to enable him to raise a body of mercenaries, with which he might be able to move nearer Rome and form a junction with Hannibal. Such were the preparations and plans of Carthage. (29.4)

    I honestly believe some of these forces, particularly the one sent to Sardinia, should have actually been sent to Hannibal, he certainly could have done with them!


  • Thank you for that: makes for good reading.
    And I do love numbers!


  • Pleased you found the post interesting  :-)

  • '12

    Quite the tour de force markdienekes.  Welcome to the forums by the way and not just because your viewpoint happens to agree with mine on this topic, but it sure does feel glorious wg.


  • Yes good post. Thank God he didn’t say Hannibal’s campaign in Italy was some silly war “across the ocean”, since it wasn’t.

    Glad that was cleared up.

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