P40 VonLetto (x) v Gamerman01 Pointlessly Broken, USA is doomed game 1

[gamerman01]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Pacific 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.0

Game History

Round :1

Politics - British
            British takes Political Action: Political Action British To War With Japanese
                British succeeds on action: Political Action British To War With Japanese: Changing Relationship for Japanese and British from Neutrality to Unprovoked
                British succeeds on action: Political Action British To War With Japanese: Changing Relationship for Japanese and ANZAC from Neutrality to Unprovoked
                British succeeds on action: Political Action British To War With Japanese: Changing Relationship for Japanese and Dutch from Neutrality to War
                British succeeds on action: Political Action British To War With Japanese: Changing Relationship for Chinese and British from Neutrality to Allied
                British succeeds on action: Political Action British To War With Japanese: Changing Relationship for Chinese and ANZAC from Neutrality to Allied
                British succeeds on action: Political Action British To War With Japanese: Changing Relationship for Chinese and Dutch from Neutrality to Friendly

Purchase Units - British
            British buy 1 bomber; Remaining resources: 4 PUs;

Combat Move - British

Non Combat Move - British
            1 battleship moved from 37 Sea Zone to 54 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from India to 39 Sea Zone
            1 artillery moved from India to 39 Sea Zone
            1 artillery, 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 39 Sea Zone to 42 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from 42 Sea Zone to Java
                  British take Java from Dutch
            1 artillery moved from 42 Sea Zone to Java
            3 infantry moved from Malaya to Shan State
            2 infantry moved from Burma to Yunnan
            5 infantry moved from India to Burma
            3 aaGuns moved from India to Burma
            1 fighter moved from Burma to Chahar
            1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from India to Chahar
            1 cruiser and 1 destroyer moved from 39 Sea Zone to 45 Sea Zone

Place Units - British
            1 bomber placed in India

Turn Complete - British
            British collect 20 PUs; end with 24 PUs total
            Objective UK Pacific 2 Kwangtung And Malaya: British met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 29 PUs

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

You must have missed this:

@vonLettowVorbeck1914:

Since it seems we are at an impasse, how about we compromise?

You commit to 2 live games.  If, after that time, you are not convinced that there is an issue, I will commit to one PBF game, with the possibility of more following.

At any time, we can end the whole thing if we both agree it’s not worth pursuing (time, interest, w/e), you agree that there is an issue, or I agree that there is no issue.

One thing that will complicate things would be if Japan decides to switch gears from attacking the US, but we can pursue that outside of the first 3 games if we want.

The first couple games you play probably will not be your best Allied strats anyways, so why bother dragging those out? You said you hadn’t even read my “ruminations,” so let’s play a couple live games just so you get the idea of what I am talking about.

[gamerman01]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Pacific 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.0

Game History

Round :1

Purchase Units - ANZAC
            ANZAC buy 1 infantry and 1 transport; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat Move - ANZAC

Non Combat Move - ANZAC
            1 cruiser moved from 63 Sea Zone to 26 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from New South Wales to 62 Sea Zone
            1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 62 Sea Zone to 63 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from New Zealand to 63 Sea Zone
            1 destroyer moved from 62 Sea Zone to 29 Sea Zone
            1 fighter moved from Queensland to Samoa
            2 fighters moved from New Zealand to Samoa
            1 infantry moved from Malaya to Shan State
            1 artillery moved from Queensland to New South Wales
            2 infantry moved from 63 Sea Zone to New Zealand

Place Units - ANZAC
            1 infantry placed in New South Wales
            1 transport placed in 62 Sea Zone

Turn Complete - ANZAC
            ANZAC collect 10 PUs; end with 10 PUs total
            Trigger ANZAC 1 Control Original And Malaya: ANZAC met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 15 PUs

[gamerman01]

Dude, I really don’t get it!  You make 1 move a day at your convenience, and in about 2 days we’re done!  The heart of the matter is soon to be decided - we have the first round done.

I can’t play live, because it takes me an hour to do a play.  Plus however long it takes you to do your move.  I’m not committing 4-5+ hours to playing a game at one sitting - I would get fatigued anyway.

You’re getting my best game right here, and I really don’t think the Allies can do anything better than what I’m doing right now (call me cocky if you want - I don’t care).  I’ve already made a significant improvement on the Allied response as compared to the Sword game.

Just download the ANZAC file, load it into Triple A, make your move at your convenience, and click “post” when you’re done.

I FAIL to understand what your problem with this method of playing is.  Dang, how much more easy and convenient can it possibly be?  You’ve been on the boards throughout the day anyway.  I don’t understand what’s so hard??  Jeez, we’re almost half done with this game.

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

I am not your servant. I told you I would play live, but you wouldn’t have it. Whatever. But to berate and goad me for not obeying your commands about how we must test just pisses me off. I don’t care if you are the best player in the history of the game, acting like your preferences are the only ones that matter makes you not worth my time. You have shown zero compromise. I have tried, but you just keep forcing it.

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

@Gamerman01:

I can’t play live, because it takes me an hour to do a play.  Plus however long it takes you to do your move.  I’m not committing 4-5+ hours to playing a game at one sitting - I would get fatigued anyway.

I didn’t really understand what you were saying here at first, but now I get why when after I politely noted my severe frustration with this format, you insulted me and called me a whiner and basically a coward for not wanting to play it. It also sheds a little more light as to why you think 4-5+ hours for one game is fatiguing to you and that is important, but you ignore at best and belittle at worst the fatigue and frustration I experienced trying for 3 hours to get the first turn posted in this unfamiliar format.

I apologize for flying off the handle from your beratement of me; I did not realize you had a cognitive disability or difficulty that needed accomodation and that you need to play PBF because of it. I can understand why you would be embarrased to say that that is the issue, but I really wish you would have just told me off the bat so I knew your refusal to play live was about capability rather than preference.

Again, sorry about misunderstanding your reasons, and now I can finally understand why due to insecurity with this issue a lot of your posts seem overconfident and off-putting, but I think you owe me an apology as well for not being forthcoming about something that was very relevant to the issue here. It’s out of line to demand that I play PBF after I say I am done with trying it if it’s just your preference, but if you are mentally incapable of playing a live game, that’s something you really should have told me.

Hopefully we can put the drama behind us now that I know that your insistence about PBF and your lack of consideration of my wants is due to need rather than preference. My J2 will be up soon. Apologies again.

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Pacific 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.0

Game History

Round :2

Politics - Japanese
            Japanese takes Political Action: Political Action Japanese To War With Americans
                Japanese succeeds on action: Political Action Japanese To War With Americans: Changing Relationship for Japanese and Americans from Neutrality to War
                Japanese succeeds on action: Political Action Japanese To War With Americans: Changing Relationship for Chinese and Americans from Neutrality to Allied
                Japanese succeeds on action: Political Action Japanese To War With Americans: Changing Relationship for British and Americans from Neutrality to Allied
                Japanese succeeds on action: Political Action Japanese To War With Americans: Changing Relationship for ANZAC and Americans from Neutrality to Allied
                Japanese succeeds on action: Political Action Japanese To War With Americans: Changing Relationship for Americans and French from Neutrality to Allied
                Japanese succeeds on action: Political Action Japanese To War With Americans: Changing Relationship for Americans and Dutch from Neutrality to Friendly
            Japanese takes Political Action: Political Action Japanese To War With French
                Japanese succeeds on action: Political Action Japanese To War With French: Changing Relationship for Japanese and French from Neutrality to War
                Japanese succeeds on action: Political Action Japanese To War With French: Changing Relationship for Chinese and French from Neutrality to Allied

Purchase Units - Japanese
            Japanese buy 6 transports; Remaining resources: 2 PUs; 6 SuicideAttackTokens;

Combat Move - Japanese
            Trigger Japanese Unrestricted Movement: Setting movementRestrictionTerritories cleared  for rulesAttatchment attached to Japanese
            1 submarine moved from 14 Sea Zone to 13 Sea Zone
            1 destroyer moved from 33 Sea Zone to 25 Sea Zone
            2 fighters and 2 tactical_bombers moved from 14 Sea Zone to 13 Sea Zone
            2 bombers moved from Japan to 25 Sea Zone
            1 artillery and 3 infantry moved from Kiangsi to Kwangtung
            1 infantry moved from Siam to French Indo China
                  Japanese take French Indo China from French
            5 infantry moved from Korea to 6 Sea Zone
            1 armour and 3 artilleries moved from Japan to 6 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from Japan to 6 Sea Zone
            1 armour, 3 artilleries, 6 infantry and 5 transports moved from 6 Sea Zone to 1 Sea Zone
            1 artillery, 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 14 Sea Zone to 1 Sea Zone
            1 armour, 4 artilleries and 7 infantry moved from 1 Sea Zone to Alaska
            1 fighter moved from Kiangsi to Kwangtung
            1 fighter moved from 6 Sea Zone to 25 Sea Zone
            1 tactical_bomber moved from 6 Sea Zone to Japan

Combat - Japanese
            Battle in 13 Sea Zone
                Japanese attack with 2 fighters, 1 submarine and 2 tactical_bombers
                Americans defend with 1 destroyer
                Japanese win with 2 fighters, 1 submarine and 2 tactical_bombers remaining. Battle score for attacker is 8
                Casualties for Americans: 1 destroyer
            Battle in 25 Sea Zone
                Japanese attack with 2 bombers, 1 destroyer and 1 fighter
                Americans defend with 1 destroyer
                Japanese win with 2 bombers, 1 destroyer and 1 fighter remaining. Battle score for attacker is 8
                Casualties for Americans: 1 destroyer
            Battle in Alaska
            Battle in Kwangtung
                Japanese attack with 1 artillery, 1 fighter and 3 infantry
                British defend with 1 harbour and 2 infantry
                Japanese win, taking Alaska from Americans, taking Kwangtung from British with 1 artillery, 1 fighter and 3 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 6
                Casualties for British: 2 infantry

Non Combat Move - Japanese
            1 fighter moved from Kwangtung to 6 Sea Zone
            1 fighter moved from 25 Sea Zone to 6 Sea Zone
            2 bombers moved from 25 Sea Zone to Japan
            1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Caroline Islands to Japan
            3 fighters and 3 tactical_bombers moved from Kiangsi to Japan
            1 aaGun, 2 artilleries, 6 infantry and 1 mech_infantry moved from Manchuria to Korea
            1 artillery and 3 infantry moved from Jehol to Manchuria
            1 battleship and 1 cruiser moved from 6 Sea Zone to 1 Sea Zone
            1 battleship, 2 carriers, 1 cruiser and 2 destroyers moved from 14 Sea Zone to 1 Sea Zone
            1 destroyer moved from 6 Sea Zone to 1 Sea Zone
            2 fighters and 2 tactical_bombers moved from 13 Sea Zone to 1 Sea Zone
            1 submarine moved from 6 Sea Zone to 1 Sea Zone

Place Units - Japanese
            6 transports placed in 6 Sea Zone

Turn Complete - Japanese
            Japanese collect 33 PUs; end with 35 PUs total

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

Hopefully the best allied strat (which you are using right now) will shut this down and hopefully there is also nothing Japan could have done better against this best allied strat. I am pretty sure there is someone out there who can do better than my moves, but hopefully I’m wrong. It’s a bit unfortuntate too few care about pac for someone to really take Japan to the next level.

I was hoping 2e would have everything fixed, so hopefully this test can definitively show that is the case.

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

BTW, might have handled SZ6 differently; but I wanted the insurance on Hong Kong. That extra ftr isn’t really necessary.

[gamerman01]

@vonLettowVorbeck1914:

Hopefully the best allied strat (which you are using right now) will shut this down and hopefully there is also nothing Japan could have done better against this best allied strat. I am pretty sure there is someone out there who can do better than my moves, but hopefully I’m wrong. It’s a bit unfortuntate too few care about pac for someone to really take Japan to the next level.

I was hoping 2e would have everything fixed, so hopefully this test can definitively show that is the case.

Now we’re talking!  Glad to see smart strategy talk again, and a J2!

Yes, I’m sorry for my over-reaction as well.  I’m sure I have no idea the trials and tribulations that you went through yesterday morning to play my way.

After I look over your J2, if I see anything that I humbly think could possibly be improved, I will let you know for the benefit of all in knowing whether this strat really can be stopped or not.

[gamerman01]

@Gamerman01:

I’m sure I have no idea the trials and tribulations that you went through yesterday morning to play my way.

Did you understand what I meant about setting up a rule for your e-mail program to route off all e-mails from “MARTI” to a junk folder?  Or can you just blacklist e-mails from “MARTI” or label as spam so they don’t go to your inbox?

Believe me, when I first started PBF a couple months ago, I was not happy about that either, but I pretty quickly thought up a fix (above) and now it’s not a problem…

How long did it take you to do J2?

[gamerman01]

@vonLettowVorbeck1914:

Hopefully the best allied strat (which you are using right now) will shut this down and hopefully there is also nothing Japan could have done better against this best allied strat.

To any observors: PLEASE feel free to comment directly to this thread if you have any ideas about what should be done next by either of us, or what should have been done differently.

We are both TRYING to play the optimal strat for Japan and the Allies both.  If we can both play an optimal strategy, then people won’t have to play a lot more games to figure this question out.  It’s POSSIBLE we can settle the issue one way or the other with a single game, but only if we’re making really good moves.

I think vonL and I should also be pointing out where we think the other could improve their move if we see anything, for the same reason.  Wouldn’t that be the most efficient?  Rather than someone having to play it anew just to tweak something they think could have been done differently?

I understand too, that if there are some ideas to do something differently that a new game may need to be played to try it out.  But if it’s something like “Man, why are you sitting in WUS this turn when you could move to Canada”, it would be nice to be alerted right away so we can avoid sub-optimal moves that are bringing little or no benefit, in this maiden test game.

Thanks!  :-)

[gamerman01]

@Gamerman01:

For the record, I have not studied VonL’s detailed strategy that he assures us will kill the USA with a very high percentage chance every single time.

All I know at this point is that he has a KUSAF strategy and it somehow involves the Aleutian islands and Z14.

Other than that, I have no idea what is coming.  If it succeeds the first time, maybe I will be granted another game to make adjustments.  After all, to say the game is broken your strategy has to be unstoppable even when the opponent knows pretty much exactly what is coming.  But in this first game I know none of the details.

This has changed since vonLettow uploaded 2 previous tripleA maps of this strategy.  To determine as quickly as possible whether or not the game is broken, it is more efficient to study those 2 games provided before setting up the Allied response.

So this Allied response is being prepared with full knowledge of what Japan is planning to do.  (Main points - Land on Aleutians or British Columbia as soon as possible, buying 100% transports until J3, when buying an airbase for Aleutians)

[Karl7]

Even if Japan takes the US, I have a hard time believing that ANZAC and UK can’t get huge by R4 or so and strong enough to stuff Japan.

But lets see.

[Karl7]

Why didn’t us buy 2 subs or something R1?  Looks like would have had a change to kill his fleet off Alaska… maybe?

[gamerman01]

Good move - going to Z1 and Alaska prevents my plan to defend British Columbia because it is impossible to block the fleet parked in Z1, adjacent to Z10.

Studying, I think that moving to Z9 on J2 accomplishes the same thing, so even if I had blocked off a J2 attack on Alaska like was done in the Sword game, it doesn’t prevent Japan from taking British Columbia J3.

I’m not seeing a way to stop the landing of 24 ground units on British Columbia on J3.
This means Japan can attack J4 with 16 INF, 7 ART, 1 ARM, 11 FTR, 8 TAC, and 2 BMB.  I don’t think that fact can be changed.
However, it is possible for the Allies to get some extra defense to WUS.

1. Buy 5 INF US1
2. Buy BMB UK1, TP ANZ1
3. Buy 6 INF US2
4. Buy naval base for Samoa UK2
5. Move 2 loaded transports to Samoa ANZ2
6. Buy 5 INF, AA, ARM, 3 FTR US3
7. Fly in UK bomber
8. Fly in 3 ANZ fighters
9. Transport 4 ground units from Samoa

The 4 ground units from ANZAC can probably be stopped? by parking some Japanese fleet in Z10.  However, some ships will be needed to protect 6 transports that will be moving into Z1.  But maybe the US fleet is sitting in Z10 protected by potential scrambles.  I don’t know if the Japanese player would attack the US fleet, but if they don’t, the 4 ANZAC units cannot be stopped from making it to the US on ANZ3.

If ANZAC ground units are stopped, then the Allies are defending with 21 INF, ART, 2 AA, ARM, TAC, 11 FTR, 1 BMB

Assuming 1 fighter shot down by AA, the odds are 95% chance of taking WUS.  Median result is Japan survives with the tank and 13 aircraft.  Upper quartile is 17 aircraft, 3rd quartile is 9 aircraft.

However, if you have 4 ANZAC ground units on top of that, for a total of 25 INF, then
the odds are only 72.8% chance of victory.  Median result is Japan survives with 7 aircraft.  Upper quartile is 11 aircraft, 3rd quartile is FAILURE - game over.  70/30 percentile has Japan winning, but with only 1 or 2 bombers remaining.

If the Allies build maximum defense builds with the USA every turn, fly in a UK bomber and 3 ANZAC fighters, and get 4 ANZAC infantry in, the Allies have a very good chance of winning.  If WUS falls but Japan only survives with a handful of planes, the Allies still have a good chance of winning.

As Zhukov pointed out, P40 has always been unbalanced in favor of Japan.  Running the “traditional” strategy of going after India and China first should still be successful a higher percentage of the time than going KUSAF.

[gamerman01]

@Karl7:

Why didn’t us buy 2 subs or something R1?  Looks like would have had a change to kill his fleet off Alaska… maybe?

Good thought - ran the numbers - only a 4% chance of victory and you lose all your planes and you bought 4 less infantry.  Back to the drawing board, Karl.  :-)

Thanks!

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

@Karl7:

Even if Japan takes the US, I have a hard time believing that ANZAC and UK can’t get huge by R4 or so and strong enough to stuff Japan.

But lets see.

One thing to remember is that Japan can buy defensively the turn that it actually attacks the US. So the Anzac/UK attack really needs to come before that, or it ain’t gonna happen.

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

@Gamerman01:

I think vonL and I should also be pointing out where we think the other could improve their move if we see anything, for the same reason.  Wouldn’t that be the most efficient?  Rather than someone having to play it anew just to tweak something they think could have been done differently?

I know its a lot of reading, but PLEASE read the summaries, at least skim them in the other thread. I think that will cover why I did my seemingly crazy aleutians blocks.

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

That J2 took me maybe 15 mins, not sure. Once I saw you left Alaska open I was pretty sure of what I wanted to do.

USA 3 USA can actually attack british columbia, but 8-9 Japanese units surviving is the average result.

USA Naval strats are futile IMO.t6