What country had the best trained infantry in WWII?


  • @Brain:

    yeah, I was thinking Germany as well, but I wasn’t sure if it was because of the superior weapons.

    Better weapons (in some cases)
    Better training
    Highly motivated
    And in the pre-war years the Germans had been training their Citizens in worker camps which taught them basic Infantry doctrines and discipline. The German infantry had been training for years before they were even enlisted, who said experience doesn’t pay off.


  • I agree the Germans had the best infantry because they took their own decisions, were motivated, had the best equipment,….
    But the high officers were often afraid to take a tactical decision that was against Hitlers plans. Von Paulus he followed Hilter’s plans and ended up in a surrounded Stalingrad altough there were several attempts to liberate him, he never gave the order to break out.


  • I agree with the fact that the Germans Infantry were better trained.  I mean look at what they did to Russia.  7.5 million Russian military dead.


  • @Historybuff:

    I agree with the fact that the Germans Infantry were better trained.  I mean look at what they did to Russia.  7.5 million Russian military dead.

    The losses the Russians took at the hands of the Germans were high for several reasons, first was the Soviets lack of concern for human life. The Soviets lost more men in the Battle for Stalingrad than the United States did during the war.


  • Japan had the best trained soldiers individually, but Germany had the most effective troopers as per military doctrine ( in battlefield conditions). So for results with given equipment which was usually meager,the Germans faired best.

    AS far as having logistical support and many tools to fight, the American soldier had the best of everything and was the most effective with what he actually had, ( which was alot more than the German or Japanese).

    Soviets were not great fighters, but had some great commanders.


  • @Imperious:

    Japan had the best trained soldiers individually, but Germany had the most effective troopers as per military doctrine ( in battlefield conditions). So for results with given equipment which was usually meager,the Germans faired best.

    AS far as having logistical support and many tools to fight, the American soldier had the best of everything and was the most effective with what he actually had, ( which was alot more than the German or Japanese).

    Soviets were not great fighters, but had some great commanders.

    Soviet infantry’s best fighting quality was the individual adaptness to hardship. A Soviet soldier could live off practically nothing and survive. Soviet citizens in the 1930’s lived in very primitive conditions. While the Soviets were great in defending, they were the poor in offensive capabilities.


  • Well if you’re looking at infantry training at levels higher than individual fieldcraft and marksmanship, then: Germany.

    Their use of auftrages tactics and mission-oriented leadership effectively kept them in the fight no matter what came at them.  More than 60 years later, we’re still studying and applying their doctrine and considering it innovative.


  • Hmm… no mention on Canadian troops? Perhaps I’m simply biased, but they were really decent troops, definitely the best in WWI, and I think that carried over to WWII.


  • Germans, no doubt IMO.

    Honourable mention for Finnish, Australian, Canadian and Norwegians.

    Best navymen British, followed by US?

    Best pilots Germans, followed by US.

    Al just my opinion, of course.


  • I would have to side with Imperial Japanese Army…when u are trained to fight till your last breath…that has got to be some serious brainwashing…BANZAI!!!


  • Japan had the best trained soldiers individually, but Germany had the most effective troopers as per military doctrine ( in battlefield conditions). So for results with given equipment which was usually meager,the Germans faired best.

    AS far as having logistical support and many tools to fight, the American soldier had the best of everything and was the most effective with what he actually had, ( which was alot more than the German or Japanese).

    Soviets were not great fighters, but had some great commanders.

    I have to totally agree with IL here.
    As far as Pilots, Japan, Germany, Britain,and even Russia had very good pilots.  I think that the United States made the most of their pilots, the Japanese, Russians, and Germans flew their pilots to death.  This is really stupid because (although the pilots hated it) they can be better used back off the line to train the next generation of pilots.  Even if you have a great pilot (Red Barron/Richthoven is a great example) his number could be up anytime, any day.  Its better to pull off great pilots and make them instructors before they get killed.  I believe the Brits and other Allied nations also adhered to this principle.


  • I have to totally agree with IL here.
    As far as Pilots, Japan, Germany, Britain,and even Russia had very good pilots.  I think that the United States made the most of their pilots, the Japanese, Russians, and Germans flew their pilots to death.  This is really stupid because (although the pilots hated it) they can be better used back off the line to train the next generation of pilots.  Even if you have a great pilot (Red Barron/Richthoven is a great example) his number could be up anytime, any day.  Its better to pull off great pilots and make them instructors before they get killed.  I believe the Brits and other Allied nations also adhered to this principle.

    I think you meant the German Rammjaeger wich was a Sonderkommando to delay or stop the USAAF of Daylight bombingraids but it was not a success…most of those NAPOLA fighters were shot down before they even could land a hit, some of them rammed their target and around 50 planes came back safe…that is as far as I know the only time where German Pilots on purpose tried to some degree pull off a “Kamikazee”…Lack of fuel and the closing Enemy and the Nazi cult drove them to desperate meassures…but still 50 people refused to do an insane stunt like that…
    I’ve never heard about Soviet Kamikazees ,only that they shot ambulances and red cross b/c the Soviets have not been in the Geneva Convention…

    My Grandpa used to say that the Japanese was the best soldier b/c he would go and fight everywhere for a bowl of rice, and he was dead serious about that!!..


  • Spectre04 wrote: As far as Pilots, Japan, Germany, Britain,and even Russia had very good pilots.

    This link gives you a list of WWII aces, sorted by number of victories. The top non-German ace on that list is Ilmari Juutilainen of Finland, with 94 victories. Juutilainen is pilot #122 on that list: there are 121 Germans in front of him. The top 200 contains four non-Germans: two pilots from Finland (including Juutilainen) and two from Japan.

    To return to the subject of the OP: one way of measuring infantry training levels is combat effectiveness. According to a study done by the U.S. military, American infantry were 80 - 100% as combat-effective as their German counterparts. Another study performed by the U.S. military suggests that may have been an overestimate; and that American infantry were no more effective than British infantry. The latter were 50% as combat-effective as the Germans. Soviet infantry were 20 - 33% as combat-effective as the Germans, with the higher number being the more likely. The study suggested that Italian infantry may have been less combat-effective than the Soviets, but did not go into detail. Unfortunately, the study did not examine the combat-effectiveness of Finnish, Canadian, Australian, or Japanese infantry.

    The U.S. typically achieved a 2:1 - 4:1 exchange ratio in its land battles against Japan. A large part of that was undoubtedly due to America’s superior industrial strength. For example, Japan produced 7,000 artillery pieces during WWII, compared to 257,000 artillery pieces for the U.S.. But those favorable (for the Americans) exchange ratios may not have been based on industrial production alone. Japanese banzai attacks were very similar in philosophy and execution to French “elan” style bayonet attacks used in 1914. During WWI, the French painfully learned that it does not make sense to issue bayonets to your own soldiers, and ask them to charge enemy machine guns. The Japanese use of such tactics during WWII suggests they were less advanced in their understanding of land war (and hence, probably had less advanced training techniques) than most other major powers of the era. Japanese understanding of land war became more sophisticated as the war progressed.


  • Thoroughly enjoyed the post - one thought though

    I don’t think it helps to refer to the 2:1 - 4:1 exchange ratio of US to Japan on “land battles” because there are so many different and incomparable factors.  As you mentioned - the huge industrial strength disparity.  Also, the Japanese were pretty much always on defense - it’s not like there were a lot of both, like you have in Germany vs. Russia.  There’s just no comparing amphibious assaults on Pacific islands to a European land war….

    I’d be interested to hear analysis on USA troop performance in Europe (or any other country, just specifying USA because they had the 2 very different campaigns a world apart)


  • On US performance in Europe, has anyone read Rick Atkinson’s Liberation Trilogy? I just started reading the first book, which is about Torch and the liberation of North Africa. So far, it seems that US forces are inexperienced and lucky they were landing against French troops instead of in France against German troops close to their homeland.


  • Gamerman01 wrote:

    I’d be interested to hear analysis on USA troop performance in Europe (or any other country, just specifying USA because they had the 2 very different campaigns a world apart)

    In late 1942, American troops invaded Algeria. The result was a battle between the Americans and the French. The two sides soon negotiated a peace treaty. But before they did, America achieved a 2.5-to-1 exchange ratio against the French. As you pointed out, an exchange ratio is not necessarily a good measurement of infantry effectiveness. If one side (such as the United States) happens to have an overwhelming advantage in air power, equipment, and numbers, one would expect such a nation to achieve a favorable ratio.

    In 1943, the U.S. and Britain invaded Italy. In the opinion of the U.S. military officer who performed the study I’d mentioned earlier, that combat represented the best example of American and British soldiers going up against Germans. However, he pointed out that the German force in Italy was relatively small, that it was a reserve force, and that as such it did not have the same equipment as a front line force of equal size might have had. Also, a significant percentage of its soldiers had been sent there for rest and recovery (recovery from battle wounds, for example). Based on his analysis of Anglo-American performance against this force, the author of the study concluded that American soldiers were 80 - 100% as combat-effective as the Germans, and that the British were 50% as combat-effective. (Elsewhere, he acknowledged the possibility that he’d overestimated American soldiers’ combat-effectiveness.)

    In the Soviet Union there was a strong dislike for Stalin. When Hitler invaded, he found that a significant percentage of the population was willing to join the German Army, so that they could fight against communism. One would think that the logical place for these volunteers would be on the eastern front, against communism. However, in 1944 Germany was experiencing a dramatic troop shortage, and needed to quickly transfer soldiers to its western front to prepare against American and British invasion. Many of its best western front soldiers were placed in Calais, because that is where the Germans expected the blow to land. On most of the Normandy beachheads, American and British soldiers faced mostly Russians. Only at Omaha did the Allies face actual German soldiers. Hence the phrase “Bloody Omaha.” The U.S. lost 3000 men at Omaha, in exchange for 1200 Germans. On the one hand, the Americans enjoyed air supremacy, the benefit of battleship bombardments, far more weapons and equipment than the Germans, and a 5:1 numerical advantage over the German defenders. On the other hand, the Germans had the advantage of being the defender, and the advantage of having had time to prepare their defenses. The analysis of the Italian campaign probably provides a more accurate picture of relative combat effectiveness than does this one isolated battle.

    During the initial phases of the Battle of the Bulge, bad weather prevented the Allies from receiving much benefit from their air supremacy. That’s useful, because we want ground battles, without the complicating factor of one side pummeling the other side from the air. The Battle of the Bulge was useful in another way as well, because it consisted of both attacks and counterattacks. Over the course of the battle each side was given opportunities to be on offense and on defense.

    Many of Germany’s best soldiers were sent to the Battle of the Bulge. However, that battle occurred in late 1944. By that point, Germany was running very low on “best soldiers” it could send. To fill out its numbers, many of the German soldiers in that battle were old men or boys. A number of infantry divisions were poorly equipped. Germany’s tanks in that battle were often immobilized due to its fuel shortages. The exchange ratio in that battle was approximately 1:1.

    The Battle of Berlin began just three months after the Battle of the Bulge. While no American troops were involved in the Battle of Berlin, that battle nevertheless illustrates the types of problems the German military faced at the time.


    The German defences were mainly led by Helmuth Weidling and consisted of several depleted, badly equipped, and disorganised Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS divisions, the latter of which included many SS foreign volunteers, as well as poorly trained Volkssturm and Hitler Youth members.


    The Volkssturm consisted almost entirely of old men and children; while the Hitler Youth was of course children. The Soviets experienced 81,000 losses in the Battle of Berlin; as compared to about 95,000 losses for Germany. Just two years earlier, the usual exchange ratio between Germany and the U.S.S.R. had been 3:1 in Germany’s favor. The fact that the Soviets later attained–and even slightly exceeded–a 1:1 ratio is one of several pieces of evidence which demonstrate Germany had reached the very end of its strength.

    I’m less familiar with the Pacific war than I am the European war. That said, I know that during the early stages of the war between the U.S. and Japan, Japanese military doctrine called for the bulk of their defenses to be placed on or near beaches. That doctrine made them vulnerable to shore bombardment and attack from the air, and was a significant factor in the favorable exchange ratios American forces obtained. Late in the war, a maverick Japanese army officer used a different approach. His defenses on or near beaches were light. Once his beachhead defenses had been conquered, the Americans assumed that since the shell had been cracked, the whole defensive structure for that island would crumble. Instead of that, the Japanese officer and his men conducted a long and effective defensive campaign from the interior of the island. They used natural and artificial tunnels, caves, mountains, etc. Their plan was to hold out as long as possible while inflicting the maximum possible damage on the enemy.

    However, it’s difficult to translate that one battle into an overall comparison between Japanese and American soldiers’ combat-effectiveness. The Japanese had the natural advantages of being on defense, and the island in question had a physical structure very, very well-suited to defense.


  • I read it all

    Didn’t the Germans have a significant advantage of being on defense and often having higher ground in Italy, too?


  • @Gamerman01:

    I read it all

    Didn’t the Germans have a significant advantage of being on defense and often having higher ground in Italy, too?

    Yes, but that’s something which was taken into account when the U.S. military performed the study I’d mentioned. There were times in Italy when the German Army attacked, and of course times when the British or American armies attacked. The study looked specifically at what happened when the German army attacked, and compared those results to events when the British or American armies attacked. Same thing with defense. By looking at all available data, they were able to develop a composite picture of relative combat effectiveness.


  • You are right about the belligerents, Kurt.  Though, it always feels weird reading that the US/Brits fought the French, initially, in French-North Africa.  I like to call them the “traitor/occupied/Vichy French” and the “free French” for the other side.  It just makes me feel better, haha.


  • Very interesting, thanks for fielding both questions Kurt!

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