Grasshopper's 8d System - Conversion tables for 1940 Global units

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    @Young:

    @Baron:

    I just realized you put Carrier to D2, combining with 2 Fgs D5+D5.
    It will weaken a lot Carrier on defense.
    I would tend to rise it to same value as Destroyer : D3.
    A Full Carrier will still be weaker than OOB in defense.

    Done.

    I slept on it and the Carrier in my opinion needs to defend at 2/8… it’s purchase rate is already through the roof, so let’s not use the opportunity to make them even stronger. I’m open to other opinions on this…

  • '17 '16

    @Young:

    I slept on it and the Carrier in my opinion needs to defend at 2/8… it’s purchase rate is already through the roof, so let’s not use the opportunity to make them even stronger. I’m open to other opinions on this…

    It is not the case for a stronger Carrier.

    Food for thought:

    I just realized you put Carrier to D2, combining with 2 Fgs D5+D5.
    Sum: Defense 12 pips
    It will weaken a lot Carrier on defense. (-6%)

    Nerfed Carrier, A0 D2 + 2 Fighters A4 D5 Sum : A8 D12
    Defense: 12 out of 24 (3*D8) : 50% odds

    Compared to OOB full Carrier A6 D10  out of 18 (3D6)
    Defense: 10 out of 18 = 56% odds

    I would tend to rise it to same value as Destroyer : D3.
    Carrier D3 + 2 Fgs A8 D10
    Defense with D3 Full Carrier:  D13 out of 24 = 54% odds

    A Full Carrier D3 will still be 2% weaker than OOB in defense.

    (Carrier in itself is not a whole combat unit, she needs planes.
    Hence, the real factor is comparing when it is a full compliment on board. And the best defensive comes with 2 Fighters, but the conversion into D8s made their defense factor slightly below OOB. That’s why, all in all, lowering 2 Fgs defense and giving a slight buff to Carrier make it near to OOB defense.)

    Side note, OOB we are used to compare Destroyer defense to be the same as Carrier.

    In addition, all Sub, Destroyer, Cruiser and BB get a better offensive and defensive power compared to OOB. (Meaning that Full Carrier will be relatively to other warships less cost efficient on defense compared to OOB Carrier vs OOB warships.)

    Submarine   A3 D2  A37.5% D25% +4% & +8%
    OOB                      A33.3     D16.7

    Destroyer    A3 D3 A37.5%  D37.5% +4%
    OOB                      A33.3     D33.3

    Cruiser        A5 D5 A62.5% D62.5% +12.5%
    OOB                        A50    D50

    Battleship    A6 D6 A75% D75% +8%
    OOB                     A66.7   D66.7

    Carrier D3  A8 D13 A33.3% D54.2%      -1.4%
    +2Fgs OOB:A6 D10 A33.3% D55.6%

    Carrier D2  A8 D12 A33.3% D50%      -5.6%
    +2Fgs

    Finally, if you nerfed StB offense (-5%) but also nerfed Fgs defense (-5%) and Carrier defense (-8%), you will be in the same situation against Dark Sky Strategy. While lowering StBs offense and Fgs defense but making Full Carrier D3 showed it is just -2% to OOB. That way StBs will be less efficient for Dark Sky.

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    @Baron:

    I Edit this earlier.
    Food for thought:

    I just realized you put Carrier to D2, combining with 2 Fgs D5+D5.
    It will weaken a lot Carrier on defense.
    D12/24 (50%) compared to OOB D10/18 (56%)
    I would tend to rise it to same value as Destroyer : D3.
    D13/24 (54%)
    A Full Carrier will still be weaker than OOB in defense.

    I don’t understand what you edited. I’m putting the Carrier defence back to 2/8 for now.

  • '17 '16

    Sorry, I revised the last post.
    I made it more explicit.
    A bad habit, on my part to not to…


  • @Young:

    Here’s where I need the communities help and advice…

    I want to translate the language of 6 Sided G40 oob unit values into 8 Sided unit values.

    The only percentage that can translate perfectly is 50% (3/6 or 4/8).

    I need to know where each unit from a 6 Sided oob system would fall on an 8 Sided system without passing a full point going left or right (- or +).

    In case it’s of any use, here’s a chart I’ve prepared showing how the rolls from a single 8-sided die and the rolls from a single 6-sided die distribute themselves relative to each other on a 100-point percentage scale.

    1d8 vs. 1d6.jpg

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    That is incredible CWO Marc… Being a right brain thinker and visualizer, I can’t tell you how helpful your chart is. Thank you.

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    Attacking unit dice odds

    1/8 - White (12.5%)
    Infantry (-16.7%)
    Mech Infantry (-16.7%)

    2/8 - Green (25%)
    Infantry w/Artillery (-33%)
    Mech Infantry w/Artillery (-33%)

    3/8 - Blue (37.5%)
    Artillery (+33%)
    Submarine (+33%)
    Destroyer (+33%)

    4/8 - Purple (50%)
    Tank (0%)
    Fighter (0%)
    Tactical Bomber (0%)

    5/8 - Red (62.5%)
    Strategic Bomber (-66.7%)
    Cruiser (+50%)
    Tactical Bomber w/Fighter or w/Tank (-66.7%)

    6/8 - Black (75%)
    Battleship (+66.7%)

    Defending unit dice odds

    1/8 - White (12.5%)
    AA Guns (-16.7%)
    Strategic Bomber (-16.7%)
    Submarine (-16.7%)

    2/8 - Green (25%)
    Infantry (-33%)
    Mech Infantry (-33%)
    Artillery (-33%)
    Aircraft Carrier (-33%)
    Kamikaze Token (-33%)

    3/8 - Blue (37.5%)
    Destroyer (+33%)

    4/8 - Purple (50%)
    Tank (0%)
    Tactical Bomber (0%)

    5/8 - Red (62.5%)
    Fighter (- 66.7%)
    Cruiser (+50%)

    6/8 - Black (75%)
    Battleship (+66.7%)

    Strategic bombing raid air combat unit values

    1/8 - White
    Tac Bomber (-16.7%)
    Strategic Bomber (-16.7)

    2/8 - Green
    Fighter interceptor (+16.7%)
    Fighter escort (+16.7%)

    *Special thanks to Big Al “Mike Tyson” for contributing in this idea & Baron Munchhausen for his calculations.


  • @Young:

    That is incredible CWO Marc… Being a right brain thinker and visualizer, I can’t tell you how helpful your chart is. Thank you.

    My pleasure.  Good luck with your project.


  • hey all…I know im new, but its my feeling (with regards to main man baron) that the carrier in general is too powerful on defense…my reasoning is the dreaded historical flavor view that an aircraft carrier needed and still needs escorts because it cant defend itself very well…so, in our game I feel it should be represented that way by a weaker defense (actually 1 on a 8 imo), but 2 on a 8 will work…the aircraft carrier is bought way too much because its in essence over powered…by balancing the defense folks will need to by “escorts”…look the cruiser & battleship have been balanced favorably to allow for better escorting for instance…its all about trying to get all units bought more like they should imo…

  • '17 '16

    @CWO:

    @Young:

    That is incredible CWO Marc… Being a right brain thinker and visualizer, I can’t tell you how helpful your chart is. Thank you.

    My pleasure.  Good luck with your project.

    What did you use to draw it, Marc?


  • D8  = 12.5%
    D10 = 10.0%
    D12 =. 8.333%

    Think I got it right. Don’t tske long to do on paper

  • '17 '16

    @Baron:

    @Young:

    I slept on it and the Carrier in my opinion needs to defend at 2/8… it’s purchase rate is already through the roof, so let’s not use the opportunity to make them even stronger. I’m open to other opinions on this…

    It is not the case for a stronger Carrier.

    Food for thought:

    I just realized you put Carrier to D2, combining with 2 Fgs D5+D5.
    Sum: Defense 12 pips
    It will weaken a lot Carrier on defense. (-6%)

    Nerfed Carrier, A0 D2 + 2 Fighters A4 D5 Sum : A8 D12
    Defense: 12 out of 24 (3*D8) : 50% odds

    Compared to OOB full Carrier A6 D10  out of 18 (3D6)
    Defense: 10 out of 18 = 56% odds

    I would tend to rise it to same value as Destroyer : D3.
    Carrier D3 + 2 Fgs A8 D10
    Defense with D3 Full Carrier:  D13 out of 24 = 54% odds

    A Full Carrier D3 will still be 2% weaker than OOB in defense.

    (Carrier in itself is not a whole combat unit, she needs planes.
    Hence, the real factor is comparing when it is a full compliment on board. And the best defensive comes with 2 Fighters, but the conversion into D8s made their defense factor slightly below OOB. That’s why, all in all, lowering 2 Fgs defense and giving a slight buff to Carrier make it near to OOB defense.)

    Side note, OOB we are used to compare Destroyer defense to be the same as Carrier.

    In addition, all Sub, Destroyer, Cruiser and BB get a better offensive and defensive power compared to OOB. (Meaning that Full Carrier will be relatively to other warships less cost efficient on defense compared to OOB Carrier vs OOB warships.)

    Submarine   A3 D2  A37.5% D25% +4% & +8%
    OOB                      A33.3     D16.7

    Destroyer    A3 D3 A37.5%  D37.5% +4%
    OOB                      A33.3     D33.3

    Cruiser        A5 D5 A62.5% D62.5% +12.5%
    OOB                        A50    D50

    Battleship    A6 D6 A75% D75% +8%
    OOB                     A66.7   D66.7

    Carrier D3  A8 D13 A33.3% D54.2%      -1.4%
    +2Fgs OOB:A6 D10 A33.3% D55.6%

    Carrier D2  A8 D12 A33.3% D50%      -5.6%
    +2Fgs

    Finally, if you nerfed StB offense (-5%) but also nerfed Fgs defense (-5%) and Carrier defense (-8%), you will be in the same situation against Dark Sky Strategy. While lowering StBs offense and Fgs defense but making Full Carrier D3 showed it is just -2% to OOB. That way StBs will be less efficient for Dark Sky.

    @bigalmeacham:

    hey all…I know im new, but its my feeling (with regards to main man baron) that the carrier in general is too powerful on defense…my reasoning is the dreaded historical flavor view that an aircraft carrier needed and still needs escorts because it cant defend itself very well…so, in our game I feel it should be represented that way by a weaker defense (actually 1 on a 8 imo), but 2 on a 8 will work…the aircraft carrier is bought way too much because its in essence over powered…by balancing the defense folks will need to by “escorts”…look the cruiser & battleship have been balanced favorably to allow for better escorting for instance…its all about trying to get all units bought more like they should imo…

    The choice is always on main poster hands.
    I made the case to show that Carrier is not more powerful than OOB because Fgs have been nerfed.
    And if you rather still want to weaken its defense from a more historical POV, it is alright too. Cruiser has been buffed a lot, to increase attractiveness of this unit.

    Wanting a radically less Carrier spam, D2 is the way to go.
    Players will have to revise their naval purchase habits and even strategy.


  • @Baron:

    What did you use to draw it, Marc?

    The figures were computed on a calculator.  I then used Microsoft Word to make the digits and the arrows, which I then pasted into Microsoft Paint, which is what I then used to draw the boxes and the brackets.  Paint has a useful “view gridlines” function, which generates a graph-paper look.  The gridlines don’t show up as part of the image itself (because they’re a tool), so to keep them I took a screenshot of the finished picture (with PrintKey) and pasted it into a second Paint document, which is the one that I saved and posted.

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    I dropped the defense value of a sub to a rock bottom 1/8, Carriers will stay at 2/8 defense, and Kamikaze tokens hit the board at 2/8 lowering their percentage to hit from oob values.

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=40443.msg1689436#msg1689436

  • '17 '16

    @CWO:

    @Baron:

    What did you use to draw it, Marc?

    The figures were computed on a calculator.  I then used Microsoft Word to make the digits and the arrows, which I then pasted into Microsoft Paint, which is what I then used to draw the boxes and the brackets.  Paint has a useful “view gridlines” function, which generates a graph-paper look.  The gridlines don’t show up as part of the image itself (because they’re a tool), so to keep them I took a screenshot of the finished picture (with PrintKey) and pasted it into a second Paint document, which is the one that I saved and posted.

    Thanks, I will try it.

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    I have added a poll question.

    Thanks for participatiing.


  • Make it A3 D2 with there special abilities. Always wanted stronger subs in game.

    I play D12 games and your close to Attack value A4 33.3 % but in D12 defense is D2 16.6 % so for d8 your defense is 8.34 % better. Just showing numbers. I may have to raise the sub to a D3 to match the rest of the numbered dice. But subs cost 8.


  • For a 6 icp cost for a sub that’s pretty cheap for a A3 D2 sub. Make it A2 D2 keep special abilities and give the Germans wolf pack for every 2 subs attack at 3.

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    @SS:

    For a 6 icp cost for a sub that’s pretty cheap for a A3 D2 sub. Make it A2 D2 keep special abilities and give the Germans wolf pack for every 2 subs attack at 3.

    Hey SS, thanks for the input, and I appreciate the participation… the only reason why I didn’t include an option in the poll for A2 D2, is because the oob 6 sided system has subs at a stronger attack value than it’s own defense value. Therefore, equalizing it’s attack value and defense value would not be an acceptable representation of oob subs when trying to translate it into an 8 sided system.

  • '17 '16

    To what extent YG are you and your fellow players willing to change your Sub dynamic vs Destroyer (and planes) to get as similar to Battle of Atlantic and make Sub acting mostly like Sub, DD as Destroyer and planes like planes against Sub?

    In itself D8s is already a big change.
    Open bar for Subs during first two rounds, also.

    I tested many things on that Topic.

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