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Does an airbase make a seazone hostile?


  • 2019 2017 2016

    This was discussed a while back in the FAQ thread IIRC.

    There is no question. In the event that a fighter scrambles from Novgorod to SZ127 and defeats the navy but Novgorod is lost, the fighter can land in any friendly territory of Archangel, Netensia, Karelia or Finland. The only way it is lost is if none of those territories adjacent to SZ127 are friendly to the defending nation, normally meaning the USSR.

    As WILD BILL points out a carrier with space is also a valid option.

    Interesting point about Sweden from SZ115 - hadn’t noticed that.



  • @simon33:

    Interesting point about Sweden from SZ115 - hadn’t noticed that.

    Nobody does, because Sweden is rarely brought into the game. The whole true neutrals band of brothers all for one, and one for all is pretty lame (I blame the French).

    Both sides wanted control of Scandinavia, and had plans drawn up to invade both Norway and Sweden, or at least take over the iron ore regions and ports up there. Before the Germans invaded Norway/Denmark the the allies tried to get the Norwegians and the Swedes to allow them to move troops through their countries in the name of reinforcing Finland (Winter War). This was a hoax though, because the allies true intentions were to move in and take control of the Swedish iron ore mines, and the Norwegian ports that were being used to ship war materials (the port of Narvik was especially important in the winter when the Baltic ices up).

    Germany invaded Norway for obvious strategic purposes, but also to protect their access to the Swedish iron ore and keep these trade routes open along the northern Norwegian coast line. Both sides actually invaded Norway at roughly the same time. The allies (w/Norwegian troops) moved into Navik and pushed back the Germans (they were interned in Sweden), but the allies were recalled once the Germans successfully invaded the Low Countries and France.


  • 2018 2017

    Thanks for the answer Mr. Marsh and Bill


  • 2018 2017

    Very interesting is the fact that neither the germans nor the Allies knew anything about each others invasion plans of norway for that day. The germans arrived only a few hours earlier.



  • I disagree. I think the transports get to load, offload for free in this example. Attacker has to announce their combat moves. If there is no threat to the transports present in adjacent sea zone there is no combat there. If there is no combat there how can defender scramble fighters to sea zone?

    And, if presence of an air base made a sea zone hostile, transports could not even load their cargo. If this were true it would change the game, dramatically.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016

    The scrambling rules explicity allow a scramble in response to an amphibious assault. Scrambling takes place after combat movement and before combat, resulting in a naval battle which (in this case) only allows the defender to roll.

    The rules are quite clear.

    EDIT (added excerpt from Pacific 1940 SE rulebook page 15 “Scramble”): “They can also be scrambled to resist amphibious assaults from adjacent sea zones, whether or not the territory being assaulted is the territory containing the air base.”

    Marsh


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 '13 Official Answers TripleA Moderator

    @SouthsideCH:


    And, if presence of an air base made a sea zone hostile, transports could not even load their cargo. If this were true it would change the game, dramatically.

    Marsh is correct.

    The presence of an Air Base does not make the seazone hostile, indeed.
    It is the defender’s scramble of a fighter that initiates a sea battle.

    The attacker - when planning/doing his Combat Moves - always has to take into account that a potential scramble could occur.



  • That brings up some interesting questions for me.

    1. if I am the Japanese and the US attacks me in the Carolines with 2 loaded transports, a fighter and a tac bomber (carrier to be moved there later in non-combat movement) all I have to do is declare I am scrambling a fighter and then what? I have to roll to hit, or both of his loaded transports are dead for free? And round one survivor can flee?

    1a) Lets say he brings the carrier. I still scramble. US is the attacker so he cannot attack my scrambling fighter with his carrier. Is that carrier now defenseless too? Or does he absorb a hit on carrier, transports and carrier retreat, no matter what happens in battle of Carolines fighters are destroyed?

    Marsh, I read the rule you posted before I posted my initial reply. I seriously do not think it applies to amphibious assaults without accompanying prior sea battles.

    Read rules of defenseless transports, page 20 Europe Rulebook. Mentions only the “defender” having only transports. Are you saying roles are reversed now? Bottom line is I do not think a scramble can stave off an amphibious assault.

    Another, somewhat related question.

    1. If as Germany I want to attack all the surface ships around the UK can I declare a strategic bombing attack against his air base with a lone strat bomber, knock it out and he cannot scramble later? That assumes he does not intercept on that particular attack. Am I reading it right that there is a certain sequence in combat?


  • Scratch question 2. Defender gets to scramble before any dice are rolled.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016

    Yes, the roles are reversed. If you are attacking the territory with transports, you are also attacking the sea zone around it if there is a scramble. If you don’t put forces into the sea zone with an attack value to deal with a scramble, then the scrambling defender gets to roll defense and after you take any hits you get a chance to retreat.

    Furthermore, the land battle still goes ahead but without the forces that were landing amphibiously. The US aircraft in your example still take AA shots from the AA gun, then fire their offense if they survive, then have to deal with shots from defenders, and then (and ONLY then) can they retreat.

    The airbase doesn’t make the sea zone hostile. The scrambling aircraft do. This forces you to resolve the adjacent naval combat before you can resolve the amphibious assault.

    In response to your 1a, the carrier is “attackless” (it has an attack rating of zero) and therefore does not roll any dice during its attack. It can be hit by the scrambling aircraft, which are defending the sea zone. In that scenario if you take a hit on the carrier, the planes attacking the Carolines dies unless there is another landing zone available (assuming they survive the land battle).

    Marsh


  • Official Answers

    @SouthsideCH:

    Marsh, I read the rule you posted before I posted my initial reply. I seriously do not think it applies to amphibious assaults without accompanying prior sea battles.

    It absolutely does.  In fact, there would be no reason for the rule at all if it didn’t, since a sea battle in the sea zone would be reason enough on its own to scramble.

    @SouthsideCH:

    Read rules of defenseless transports, page 20 Europe Rulebook. Mentions only the “defender” having only transports. Are you saying roles are reversed now? Bottom line is I do not think a scramble can stave off an amphibious assault.

    Scrambled air units are defenders.  The power doing the amphibious assault is the attacker, so the transports are defenseless only if they can’t retreat for some reason.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016

    @SouthsideCH:

    1. If as Germany I want to attack all the surface ships around the UK can I declare a strategic bombing attack against his air base with a lone strat bomber, knock it out and he cannot scramble later? That assumes he does not intercept on that particular attack. Am I reading it right that there is a certain sequence in combat?

    Missed this originally.

    You can strat bomb the airbase. As long as it has three or more damage and is not repaired, it cannot be used to scramble later. However, if you combine the raid on the airbase with the attack on the adjacent sea zone, the defender has the opportunity to scramble before any combat (including the strategic bombing raid) is resolved.

    Much more effective is a 1-2 punch. For instance, Italy would strat bomb the airbase, and then Germany would hit the fleet before the UK had an opportunity to repair the airbase.

    Marsh


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