Does an airbase make a seazone hostile?


  • 2018 2017

    Hi there,

    situation: UK transports are at sz 91, they try to invade Normandy or Holland via amphibious assault from sz 110, loading units from London to attack.

    Question: Does an airbase in either Normandy or Holland (operativ, fighter / tactical bomber on Station) make sz 110 hostile for purpose of loading units from London?

    Cheers,
    H.



  • No, transports can load and move from sea zones even if an enemy airbase is adjacent to them, but a single German scramble from the airbase after UK’s combat movement will create a sea battle negating bombardments.


  • 2019 2017 2016

    Second that.


  • 2018 2017

    Thanks, YoungGrasshopper, for that fast response.

    Cheers,
    H.


  • 2018 2017 2016

    What if there were no warships? Would the fighter still be able to scramble and wipe out all of the transports and their cargo without rolling a dice?


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016

    Planes could scramble in response to an amphibious landing in the sea zone regardless of whether or not warships are present. If there were no warships to soak up the defensive hits, any hits by the planes would be taken on transports (presumably loaded).

    Marsh



  • In addition to MOW’s post, remember that not all transports are automatically lost… scrambled fighters roll to hit lone transports, any surviving transports after 1 combat round may option to retreat.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016

    Hmm

    How would that work if the transports were being loaded in London and the airbase was in Normandy. By RAW, the transports have nowhere to retreat unless the UK player had the foresight to move the transports away and then back to sea zone 110. Retreating naval units requires them to move to an adjacent sea zone from which they travelled – if they didn’t travel, there can be no retreat…

    Marsh



  • @Marshmallow:

    Hmm

    How would that work if the transports were being loaded in London and the airbase was in Normandy. By RAW, the transports have nowhere to retreat unless the UK player had the foresight to move the transports away and then back to sea zone 110. Retreating naval units requires them to move to an adjacent sea zone from which they travelled – if they didn’t travel, there can be no retreat…

    Marsh

    Excellent point, can transports that bridged landings all from one sea zone retreat to a different sea zone? Maybe a rule deputy can chime in here.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016

    By rules as written, the answer is clearly no.

    Churchillian!

    Marsh



  • @Marshmallow:

    By rules as written, the answer is clearly no.

    Churchillian!

    Marsh

    Gottcha, so all transports and cargo are dead.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016

    I think so. Only air units are allowed to retreat and remain in the same territory/sea zone – all other types must move to somewhere they came from.

    Unless I missed something in the rules, “everything dies” seems to be the right conclusion.

    Marsh


  • 2018 2017 2016

    Hmm I had wondered about that. So clearly you can’t attack an airbase with only transports when there is a fighter(s) that can be scrambled. I will have to make sure I keep enough German fighters on Normandy and Western Germany.


  • 2019 2017 2016

    Bridging units can still move one square away and back. Here’s a better idea though - don’t do it!

    Of course, this only applies to amphibious assaults. If you are unloading on NCM, there is no scramble.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016

    It’s absolutely an easy problem to overcome. Bop to 109, then down to 104, and then back to 110. Now you have two retreat options. If on the other hand you forget to use your movement and your opponent scrambles, you learn a painful lesson.

    Marsh


  • 2019 2017 2016

    @Marshmallow:

    It’s absolutely an easy problem to overcome. Bop to 109, then down to 104, and then back to 110. Now you have two retreat options. If on the other hand you forget to use your movement and your opponent scrambles, you learn a painful lesson.

    Marsh

    Pretty sure that only allows retreat to 104. If you have a second transport which comes from 109, you then have two retreat options. If you use SZ111, you can then use a scramble to defend assuming you are allies and hold Scotland.


  • 2018 2017 2016

    If you launch an amphib. attack, your TT’S are locked.
    If you  retreat the TT’s will still be locked. They finished their movement.


  • 2019 2017 2016

    @aequitas:

    If you launch an amphib. attack, your TT’S are locked.
    If you  retreat the TT’s will still be locked. They finished their movement.

    The land units are locked. If you retreat from the sea combat then they are unlocked or never become locked, if you like. They remain on board the TT.



  • Yea, you can’t off load your ground units until you win the sea battle, so in the case of a scramble against lone transports it is impossible to win the sea battle. Therefore if the tpts can retreat they take their cargo with them.

    I agree that if you bridged (didn’t move the transports in the combat move phase), then you can’t retreat your transports. I also agree that is an easy fix, you just point out in the combat move phase the different paths your transports took to get back to where they started lol.

    I have to say that although the rules are in place to deal with this situation, it really shouldn’t come up unless you are just learning the game (maybe your whole group is learning). If I was playing with a newbie and they did this (or something similar) I would defiantly point out the error. Nothing like playing a game for hours (days) for it to come down to some BS where he looses 10 tps because he missed something that should have been obvious.

    I just don’t see why you would ever take in lone tpts for an amphib, unless you were facing Japanese Kami’s (exposing surface warships), but you would still flood the sz with air to protect your tpts from scramble. If you can’t get warships in (maybe they are blocked, but can NCM in later for protection) then you still send air units into the sz to combat the possibility of a scramble. I could see getting diced and losing your escorts/air leaving you in this situation, but not setting up for destruction from the get go w/o any cover.


  • 2018 2017

    Concerning this transports retreat discussion: following the rulebook (General Combat, step 1 & step 6 condition B), only units placed -along- the battle strip could open retreat option. Transports i.e. are placed -beside- the battle strip. So, can transports, if they are the only involved sea unit, create retreat options at all?


  • 2019 2017 2016

    @WILD:

    I just don’t see why you would ever take in lone tpts for an amphib,

    I do that a lot. Either a suiciding TT or one I think can’t be reached. Although I’m not really the person to ask.



  • @hecatomb:

    Concerning this transports retreat discussion: following the rulebook (General Combat, step 1 & step 6 condition B), only units placed -along- the battle strip could open retreat option. Transports i.e. are placed -beside- the battle strip. So, can transports, if they are the only involved sea unit, create retreat options at all?

    Yes transports are allowed to retreat


  • 2018 2017

    this stranded transport example can happen during a mixed invasion (such as novogrod) when the attacker doesn’t properly augment the attacking force against a scramble.  In this unusual case, we have seen the transports run off once the escorts are dead (not destroyed), but then even the scrambling fighters can be killed without reply I believe (as the ground troops successfully destroy Leningrad without the amphibious help) since they cannot both participate in the sea scramble and the land battle.

    The loaded, stranded transports get mopped up the next turn, if any allies can reach them.

    We did question whether the fighters who scramble defensively are over the SZ or properly seen as physically over the territory, not sure that the “if they can land within one space rule” could apply here since 1) it is on the defender’s turn that they lose their LZ 2) they did not move…they scrambled 3) they cannot scramble AND fight 4) planes have to land during the noncom applys to attacking planes…


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016

    I don’t think there’s any question about the location of the fighters at all. The airbase rules say that the fighters scramble to an “adjacent sea zone”. This means that the fighters are in the sea zone.

    Marsh



  • @Marshmallow:

    I don’t think there’s any question about the location of the fighters at all. The airbase rules say that the fighters scramble to an “adjacent sea zone”. This means that the fighters are in the sea zone.

    Marsh

    I’m with Marsh, you scramble to the sz. If the territory you scrambled from is taken that turn you have 1 move to find a landing spot adjacent to that sz (territory or carrier). So if you scrambled from Novgorod into sz 115 in the Baltic and Novgorod was taken then you could land in Vyborg, Baltic states, Finland or Sweden (if activated), if any are friendly to you. You could also land on a friendly carrier in sz114 if it had space. If not the plane is lost.


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