13L G40 Boldfresh (Allies +12) vs. Me1945

boldfresh

No first thing he said is “lets me make sure I understand the victory conditions (which I had been hinting at) before I raise a stink” :wink:

boldfresh

@Me1945:

There are a couple issues with the turns you just posted. Before I bring the issues to the thread that I don’t like to do, let me ask you a question to make sure we are in the same page.
GLOBAL RULES:
How the War is Won
The Axis wins the game by controlling either any 8 victory cities on the Europe map or any 6 victory cities on the Pacific map for a complete round of play, as long as they control an Axis capital (Berlin, Rome, or Tokyo) at the end of that round.

I took the 8th VC in J6 and control the capitals. So, the game is over if Allies fail to take one of the Europe VCs I control now or Tokyo by the end of Rus 7 when the round of play is completed, right?

Not too hard to read between the lines. :lol:

seth4god

Ok, true. I’ll give you that one. But we still need to wait for a league mod to voice in.

boldfresh

Bottom line he was fine allowing me to redo the turn (as any reasonably experienced player would be) until he realized he didnt have the game won, at which point he decided to start grasping at rule technicalities in a (lame) attempt to save his hide. :wink:

boldfresh

jenn and gamer where are you? :-)

gamerman01

@seththenewb:

Ok, true. I’ll give you that one. But we still need to wait for a league mod to voice in.

There’s only 1 league moderator, and that’s Cmdr Jenn, so you guys will have to get her ruling unless you come to a mutual agreement yourselves.

I read the discussion from today, but haven’t looked back at what actually happened. Anyway, I’m not going to pick a side (yet, anyway) because I don’t completely understand what exactly happened.

It sounds like there was a scrambling decision made by Me, and then after that, Bold noticed some walkins that he wanted to do? And then didn’t re-confirm the scrambling decision? And then Me is protesting that he should have been asked again for the scrambling decision because the combat move had been changed (possibly a valid protest depending on what walkins we’re talking about here), so he is wanting to disallow the walkins because he wasn’t given another opportunity to confirm the scramble decision?

Is the above paragraph accurate so far?
Which territories were walked into after the initial scrambling decision?
Isn’t the solution to allow the walkins because no dice had been rolled when the walkin decision was made (a little late, but before dice), and allow Me to change the scrambling decision if he wants, and if dice have been rolled after Bold assumed no change in the scramble decision, to ignore those dice and re-roll?
Or is there a relevant fact that I haven’t listed above?

seth4god

There’s a couple things that I think are relevant that you didn’t touch on.

1. In a series of rapid posts, Bold stated a couple different changes and then just said he was going to redo his move.

2. Me initially Ok’d edits after Bold said he’d redo the move. Now Me’s saying he was only okaying them provisionally and wanted to know what edits Bold was making. However he doesn’t make that clear at all in his post that simply says “No problem. Take your time.” I don’t know what he meant when he posted that. But it does seem to give Bold an ok to make the changes he posted and doesn’t indicate that he’d have any issues with anything.

3. Bold didn’t bring ftr/tac to sz112 for the redo. So you could argue that the scramble equation changed. So now it was 2 dd, 3ca, bb vs potentially 2ftrs instead of 2dd, 3ca, ftr, tac, bb vs the 2 ftrs. Still not great odds to that scramble.

4. Bold landed heavily in Algeria and to a lesser extent Morocco instead of Denmark and added a combat of ss, dd, tac vs ca in the med.

The only reason I’m leaning towards Bold in this one is because of #2 above

gamerman01

Thanks, Seth

I’m going to stay out of this one, then.
Hopefully the players can come to a mutually agreeable solution
I don’t know how long you’ll have to wait on Jenn

boldfresh

Gamer you are essentially a comoderator as I understood from dave jensens email to me. I think you would be able to give rhe most compelling assessment until we hear from her.

Thanks for all the thoughts guys and of course I hope me and Me can work it out reasonably without needing to bother rhe cmdr, who is probably wrapped up in chicago blackhawk fever right now! :-P

boldfresh

FYI Me, there’s a thread with comments from (mostly) league players. in case you would be interested in listening to what impartial and experienced players think.

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=31394.new#new

boldfresh

@Me1945:

Bold, you broke the rules. Combat goes after scramble, not CM adjustments. I did a favor for you before allowing some changes after rolling, but not in this case. What I am definitely NOT going to do is having any theoretical discussion with you.
Btw, if what Garg says is true, we are just waisting the time.

What garg says is true, you need 8 VC for 1 full round. So yeah why arent we finishing this game out from my UK post? :-P. Dont worry you got this. Doing the other thing would have put you in danger as well but I gave you credit for being able to navigate it more easily.

Cheers now lets roll. :-)

Me1945

The only solution I can offer you is: you go with the original US CM file you posted before scramble, which is the way IT MUST BE, and proceed with CH6 and UK6 whatever a way you want meaning you can re-roll it, and AFTER finalizing the game I’ll give you a chance to beat me with the last UK6 currently attached file plus UK Tac from Tam you wanted to land on sz96. But, it will be treated as separate league game. Let me know, if anything is unclear here.

boldfresh

Yes nothing is clear and it makes little sense. We can wait for Jenn. :roll:

boldfresh

And I am very disappointed in you Me. Very sad that you want to go contrary to all reason. Every league player that has weighed in disagrees with you.

boldfresh

The saddest thing of all is you are even contradicting yourself. :roll:

Jennifer

@Boldfresh:

May change the landing locations some.

@Boldfresh:

ok, i put that move together before running into a meeting. now that i’ve had a little more time to look it over, i think i want to change it a bit. landing only in norway and taking 1 less ftr into z112. doubt that will change your scramble but if it does, we can run it.

@Me1945:

No problem. Take your time.

@Boldfresh:

if you are referring to the fact that i didn’t ask for your scramble in 112, i have said that if i changed what i was bringing into the zone, you are free to scramble and run the battle later.

@Me1945:

The issue is your US CM changes after posting my scramble decision. Some changes are possible, but I did not confirm any. I can only accept the original CM file you posted and don’t accept the arguments like what is related or not. US CM phase is over. In the case you refuse proceeding with the original file, we need the league administrator ruling.

I believe the above is an accurate representation of what has been posted in relation to the question thus far, by both contestants.

Personally, I’ve always held the rule of “as long as the dice have not started to fall yet, changes are possible.” This is reflected in the league rules with regard to finding and fixing errors before that person’s next turn, else they stand as they are. In this case, the dice had not yet started to fall.

However, I recognize that scramble decisions may change based on what is, and is not present. Bold recognized this in his statement (second to last one listed above) to the fact that if he altered what he was bringing to SZ 112 that he would ask for a new scramble order, and since there was no change, he feels that there was no need to ask for another scramble order and that the last one should stand.

For now, I am going to rule that the turn stands as presented at the end of the Allied turn. If there is new evidence that you’d like to present to me, that may change my ruling, please do so.

boldfresh

Yes jenn please look closer. Specifically I stated I was going to change what I brought into the zone and change other moves. Then I said I would just redo the move but would still land in z112. At that point me said “no problem. Take your time.”

Thanks Jenn

boldfresh

in addition Jenn, two important facts:

1. no dice had been rolled as you stated
2. he didn’t scramble in the first place, as no reasonable person ever would. had he scrambled, then he would be able to argue logically that i should not be allowed to take anything different into the zone. to argue that i should not be allowed to take less into the zone when there was still overwhelming force entering is ludicrous.
3. he stated that he was fine with me changing my landings.
4. finally, he stated that he was fine with me redoing the move (again as any reasonable player would be given the circumstances)

to now try and cling to some rules technicality to force the original move when he clearly stated he was fine with me redoing is very poor sportsmanship, in my opinion.

please do an in depth review, as i said, all of the players that have reviewed the situation disagree with Me’s hard stance. In addition, Me refuses to argue in support of his stance because it is apparently indefensible by reason.

boldfresh

i guess i came up with 4 important facts. :lol:

boldfresh

in addition, since there were no land battles to follow the z112
landing (it was a walkin) i said if he wanted to scramble, he
could go ahead and do so.

13L G40 Boldfresh (Allies +12) vs. Me1945

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