YA. You’ll have to go back and change title to Multifling rules for interactions of transports, Submarines, Destroyers and Planes.
:-D….
@Baron:
Another way to keep balance between Subs and Destroyers on unit scale, I would suggest this:
I really don’t think you’ll have to worry about it. The German player has bigger fish to fry (holding off Russia). If the German player buys enough subs to clear the Atlantic, he would have to do it at the expense of losing the East Front. Subs are cool to play with, but they don’t take land, so they won’t win the game for you.
@SS:
YA. You’ll have to go back and change title to Multifling rules for interactions of transports, Submarines, Destroyers and Planes. Â :wink:
@Der:
@Baron:
Another way to keep balance between Subs and Destroyers on unit scale, I would suggest this:
I really don’t think you’ll have to worry about it. The German player has bigger fish to fry (holding off Russia). If the German player buys enough subs to clear the Atlantic, he would have to do it at the expense of losing the East Front. Subs are cool to play with, but they don’t take land, so they won’t win the game for you.
I wrote the other ways to solve the problem (if it was one) but I think I will follow your advice DK, thanks.
I didn’t abandon the hope of having something simple. :-)
This thread can have many posts and many ways of trying to make it simpler and balance.
In fact, increasing the strength of the Subs compared to DDs is probably balanced by keeping a real Classic transport which can be used anytime as a fodder unit.
That’s a good news.
So, Transports behavior in combat will be simpler and a bit more according to historical Subwarfare.
Subs will get more occasions of doing surprise strike keeping 1 DD:1 Sub. This makes for more funny situations instead of a scripted casualty scenario.
I would also say that in my game, we play with Escort Carrier (A1 D1 C11, ASV as DD, 1 plane on board), and this CVE unit already make harder time for Subs. And even if a CVE is sunk by a surprise strike, the plane on board can still retaliate on the Subs in that given round.
In addition, Subs are no more immune against planes without DDs, making Subs weaker in this perspective.
I didn’t abandon the hope of having something simple.
I think I found it….
I didn’t abandon the hope of having something simple.
I think I found it….
Go ahead, I’m curious.
What is your idea?
@Baron:
@SS:
YA. You’ll have to go back and change title to Multifling rules for interactions of transports, Submarines, Destroyers and Planes.:wink:
@Der:
@Baron:
Another way to keep balance between Subs and Destroyers on unit scale, I would suggest this:
I really don’t think you’ll have to worry about it. The German player has bigger fish to fry (holding off Russia). If the German player buys enough subs to clear the Atlantic, he would have to do it at the expense of losing the East Front. Subs are cool to play with, but they don’t take land, so they won’t win the game for you.
I wrote the other ways to solve the problem (if it was one) but I think I will follow your advice DK, thanks.
I didn’t abandon the hope of having something simple. :-)
This thread can have many posts and many ways of trying to make it simpler and balance.In fact, increasing the strength of the Subs compared to DDs is probably balanced by keeping a real Classic transport which can be used anytime as a fodder unit.
That’s a good news.
So, Transports behavior in combat will be simpler and a bit more according to historical Subwarfare.
Subs will get more occasions of doing surprise strike keeping 1 DD:1 Sub. This makes for more funny situations instead of a scripted casualty scenario.
I would also say that in my game, we play with Escort Carrier (A1 D1 C11, ASV as DD, 1 plane on board), and this CVE unit already make harder time for Subs. And even if a CVE is sunk by a surprise strike, the plane on board can still retaliate on the Subs in that given round.
In addition, Subs are no more immune against planes without DDs, making Subs weaker in this perspective.
I just realized I have another way of minimizing the impact of the offensive superiority of Subs over Destroyer on the same IPCs basis.
I will implement with the Classic transport, this special Destroyer’s retreat move that I already formulated in the opening posts:
Anti-Sub Patrol Mission
Since Destroyers are mainly escorting and patrolling against Submarines, when moving to attack at least one Submarine, Destroyers get a special retreat move:
even if there is no more enemy warship in a once embattled sea zone, attacking Destroyers can retreat 1 sea zone from where they came.
In this manner, if a few Destroyer units need to hunt a Subs group, Destroyers will not be left on their own in the SZ.
They somehow get the possibility to also protect vulnerable surface vessels which can be needed in a specific SZ, usually not the same in which are the ennemy’s Subs.
So, Destroyers being much faster than Subs have more mobility to play their dual roles in the Anti-subwarfare: escort and sub hunter.
Here is a way of phrasing KNP’s Subs submerge after DD and planes makes an attack.
2. WHENEVER a SUB is due to roll (either in attack or defence), it ALWAYS has the option to submerge instead
-note the word ALWAYS. What this means is, is that at most, a SUB would only have to endure 1 round of opposing rolls.
(Currently, they are forced to stay surfaced every round as long as an opposing DD is in play.)
-DDs still delay the SUBs roll til later in the round, however, the SUBs can submerge even if the DD is present (just not immediately at the start of combat)
-This will significantly increase SUB survival.Or instead:
2. Whenever a SUB is due to roll (either in attack or defence), it ALWAYS has the option to submerge instead
-opposing DDs still cancel 1st strike, however, they do not cancel a SUBs ability to submerge
-SUBs would still have to endure at least 1 round of combat if a DD is present (but at least not multiple rounds)
In essence, this means that instead of firing in the first round, a blocked Sub submerge during the defenders regular combat roll phase.
This makes for 2 ways:
One in which sub commanders wait to roll his defense dice waiting to see if it gets hit and, if not, can decide to submerge.
And the other:
During the first combat round, the Subs retaliate, then at the start of the second round (during opening phase) the subs retrieve his capacity to submerge and can do it instead of being under ennemy’s shots.
Baron…I just send you the rules…
AL
Oh No! :cry:
Oh No!
You can’t keep it for you… :evil:
Did you send him 1 rule or the whole set of rules ?
The whole refresh rule…
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
No wonder he hasn’t repled in awhile. :-D :-D :-D Just wait its comin. :-D :-D :-D
Maybe now you’ll get some other people to play it and get some feedback.
don’t worry…I send it to you too…
I’m not worried. Thanks again.
I’m not worried. Thanks again.
I’m working on it…
@Baron:
Thanks guys for your reply,
I think I really find the solution and it was under our noses.
The issue about 6 IPCs Subs is that it shouldn’t be the fodder of the sea, but 8 IPCs Destroyer.
Larry Harris fixed this issue by requiring that planes need Destroyer to hit Submarines, so not bringing into combat a Destroyer will prevent the defender to use submarines as fodder against a massive Air attack.Your 8-8-8 was part of the solution Toblerone77.
Destroyer is still A2 D2 M2 C8, 1 hit, block Submarine’s no hostile SZ and Surprise Strike on 1:1 basis
Transport is A0 D1 M2 C8, 1 hit (I prefer chosen last for historical , but the Classic transport is OK, from a gameplay perspective)The real change is to make Submarine absolutely not interesting unit as fodder.
Here is the trick, I think:
Submarine A3 D1 M2 C8, 1 hit, Submerge and Surprise strike, cannot hit plane and the rest as OOB.
Need 1 DD to block 1 Sub’s Surprise Strike.
Works the same as yours Der Kuenstler, with KNP escape always possible during regular combat phase, except 1 thing: planes can always hit submarines (DD not needed, but they can submerge before being attacked, if the Surprise Strike Phase is not blocked).On offense, such Sub can be prefered over Destroyer A2 and even sometimes, Cruiser A3 and Fighter A3, simply because you will be able to directly hit Warships, even capital warships (the costlier units), with even a bonus by getting ride of enemy’s DDs and being able to retrieve Surprise Strike. So submarine would not be chose amongst the first fodders casualties.
At first glance Sub seems more powerful.
In fact, this Sub unit is weaker than the actual OOB Submarine with DK’s HR.
4 OOB Subs A2 D1 C6 = A8 D4 C24, 4 hits.
3 Subs A3 D1 C8 = A9 D3 C24, 3 hits.
4 Subs A2 OOB 57% vs 3 Subs A3 38% for 8 IPCs Subs, if both were attacking the others at her attack factor.On offense, it is still a formidable weapon, but on defense and due to the similar cost with Destroyer, it will be a waste to sacrifice them as fodder since you can always Submerge (once the first regular attack has been done against them, in case when many DDs are attacking) to make a better use of them on the offense. Let them survive to fight another day!
Why would you keep them as fodder to pad your fleet on defense, since they are now vulnerable to plane but unable to hit them like DD can?I think this new combat value and the same cost as Destroyer and the evasive Submerge will do the job by itself without the need to add a specific restriction on casualty picking as I suggested earlier.
The optimized choice of any owner’s will be clear. You can use Subs as fodder on defense, but it is at a huge tactical cost, since this more expensive Submarine is an offensive weapon, hitting as hard as a Cruiser on specific targets, such as BB, CV and Cruiser. That was the case OOB, but since it was the cheapest warships, it was clearly tantalizing to pick them as casualty.
What do you think of this?
Isn’t that simpler?
No special rule for plane.
No unlimited blocker capacity for DD, keeping 1:1 against Surprise strike and no hostile SZ only.
A Submerge capacity which is not block but only delayed until the regular combat phase, which still imply that Planes needs to bring X number of Destroyers to prevent X number of Subs from submerging during their Surprise Strike phase.Do you see why it was mostly right under our nose? :wink:
I believe it is the better way to simplify every interactions.
Of course, the cost of Submarine is increase to 8 IPCs, this make any Naval investment still a bit costlier.
Of course, there is the OOB transport at 7 IPCs, but I rather prefer a transport acting like other units, as much as possible while still keeping OOB balance.
So here is the complete roster with the minimal changes to planes, Destroyers, Submarines and Transports:
Infantry A1-2 D2 M1 Cost 3
Get +1A if paired 1:1 with Artillery
Mechanized Infantry A1-2 D2 M2 Cost 4,
Get +1 if paired 1:1 with Artillery
Can Blitz when paired 1:1 with a Tank
Artillery A2 D2 M1 Cost 4
Gives +1A to 1 Infantry or 1 Mechanized Infantry
Anti-Aircraft Artillery A0 D0 NCM1 Cost 5, 1 hit,
up to 3 @1 preemptive against up to 3 planes, whichever the lesser
Tank A3 D3 M2 Cost 6
Can Blitz or allow MechInf to blitz on 1 on 1 basis.
Gives +1 Attack to 1 Tactical Bomber if paired 1:1 with.
Submarines A3 D1 M2 Cost 8
Surprise Strike (except when ASV is present),
Submerge (instead of rolling to hit a target),
No Hostile Sea Zone (except when ASV is present),
Cannot hit airplanes,
Can be hit by planes, doesn’t require an ASV.
Destroyer A2 D2 M2 Cost 8
Anti-Sub Vessel on 1 DD:1 Sub basis:
blocks Surprise Strike and No Hostile Sea Zone
but cannot cancel Sub Submerge (which will happen for defending Subs in regular combat phase after the attacker rolls, if a DD block the Sub’s Surprise strike).
Transport A0 D1 M2 Cost 8, 1 hit, still taken as last casualty.
Fighter A3 D4 M4 Cost 10
Gives +1 Attack to 1 Tactical Bomber if paired 1:1 with.
Can hit submarines without ASV.
Tactical Bomber A3-4 D3 M4 Cost 11
Gets A4 when paired 1:1 to a Fighter unit or a Tank.
Cannot do interception mission on defense, TcBR damage: 1D6.
Can hit submarines without ASV.
Cruiser A3 D3 M2 Cost 12
Shore bombardment @3
Strategic Bomber A4 D1 M6 Cost 12
SBR/TcBR Attack @1,
SBR/TcBR damage: 1D6+2 on Industrial Complex, Air Base or Naval Base.
Can hit submarines without ASV.
1942 Carrier A1 D2 M2 Cost 14, 1 hit
carry 2 planes (Fg or TcB)
G40 Carrier A0 D2 M2 Cost 16, 2 hits
carry 2 planes (Fg or TcB)
Battleship A4 D4 M2 Cost 20, 2 hits
Shore bombardment @4
Now, here is an alternate scale of cost for those which wanted more warships for their bucks, it keeps all the combat ratio between them very close to OOB :
Instead of having a bottom cost of 8 IPCs for Naval units, it is put at 6 IPCs:
Submarines A3 D1 M2 Cost 6
Surprise Strike (except when ASV is present),
Submerge (instead of rolling to hit a target),
No hostile sea-zone (except when ASV is present),
Cannot hit airplanes,
Can be hit by planes, doesn’t require an ASV.
Destroyer A2 D2 M2 Cost 6
Anti-Sub Vessel on 1 DD:1 Sub basis:
blocks _surprise strike_but cannot cancel Sub submerge (which will happen for defending Subs in regular combat phase after the attacker rolls, if a DD block the Sub’s Surprise strike).
Transport A0 D1 M2 Cost 8, 1 hit,
Works as classics: casualty taken at the owner’s choice,
Fighter A3 D4 M4 Cost 8
Gives +1 Attack to 1 Tactical Bomber if paired 1:1 with.
Can hit submarines without ASV.
Tactical Bomber A3-4 D3 M4 Cost 9
Gets A4 when paired 1:1 to a Fighter unit or a Tank.
Cannot do interception mission on defense, TcBR damage: 1D6.
Can hit submarines without ASV.
Cruiser A3 D3 M2 Cost 9
Shore bombardment @3
Strategic Bomber A4 D1 M6 Cost 10
SBR/TcBR Attack @1,
SBR/TcBR damage: 1D6+2 on Industrial Complex, Air Base or Naval Base.
Can hit submarines without ASV.
1942 Carrier A1 D2 M2 Cost 11, 1 hit
carry 2 planes (Fg or TcB)
G40 Carrier A0 D2 M2 Cost 12, 2 hits
carry 2 planes (Fg or TcB)
Battleship A4 D4 M2 Cost 15, 2 hits
Shore bombardment @4
I really think this scale can be funnier (letting people buying more impressive sculpts than just tiny ground units) while still requiring the same 8 IPCs for transports investment, this make them costlier than the basic fodder unit at 6 IPCs.
This can let give up the “taken last rule” and let to the player’s hands all the decision on casualty.
The combat values of each units will speak for itself to help the player minimize the effect of losses and maximize the potential combat values it can preserves. The cost and combat values most of the time will be enough incentive, so the “unit general behaviour” (motives for buying it, offensive or defensive combat function, Non-Combat Move and usual casualties order) works in the way intended for this kind of unit.
In the current A&A Global game, the units are misused in a gamey way. Subs are used as fodder in naval battles, and this is historical not correct since subs were the most expensive and time consuming ships to build. But even worse, to kill a group of 5 subs, you can send in one destroyer with 10 Bombers, and you only lose your destroyer. Or you can send in one destroyer with 5 Battleships, and they absorb all the hits. Now this are all tactics that an experienced player can use against a beginner just for fun, but it feels wrong.
Among the tons of house rules to fix this issue, I favor to let destroyers be the only units to hit subs. This is almost historical correct. The game start in 1940, and planes did not sink subs before 1945. It will also get rid of a lot of special rules, like the sneak attack etc. So, if you play on the current Global map, and want to target the convoy zone outside UK, you just send in 2 German subs. Now, if there are a UK fleet there, they cant roll against subs. Only destroyers can. And one destroyer roll one dice, and maybe sink one of the subs. Now if there are 3 UK destroyers there, they roll 3 dice. That is a simple rule, and I cant understand why its not an OOB rule.
But then we got the problem that a convoy zone adjacent to UK is very easy to protect. UK just place a lot of destroyers there, protected by scrambling fighters and a fleet. And this is just like in the real world. German subs almost never sank ships in port. But the Global map don’t have convoy zones out in the ocean, only adjacent to land, where they are easy to protect. So IMHO that is a flaw. Making the A&A Europe 1999 map superior, when it comes to commerce raiding.
Is that true about Submarine being costlier to built than Destroyers?
If that’s true, so placing OOB 1942/G40 Subs at 6 IPCs vs 8 IPCs for DDs or in Revised: Subs at 8 IPCs vs 12 IPCs for DDs was for game balance purpose.
So it can also be acceptable, from a nearer historical truth perspective, to put Submarines at the same cost as Destroyer, for instance 8 IPCs.
@Der:
@Baron:
My first impressions are that 1 DD:1 Sub combined with Subs surprise strike makes Destroyer weaker than Subs.
On opening moves, German’s two Atlantic Subs were very successful because 1 single preemptive hit was enough to sunk the destroyer without any retaliation. This left a weak Transport defending @1 against two Subs.
The USA’s DD+planes easily get rid of 1 Atlantic Subs in the first round (the other sub submerge) but, again, the surviving DD was no match against the 2 remaining U-boats (1 which was able to submerge in the previous battle and the other coming from the previous assault on UK’s Battleship.) The destroyer was again sunk by a preemptive strike.
So, attacking Subs were already deadlier on the same IPCs basis than Destroyer.
But, in any numerical advantage over DDs, it is even more deadlier if DDs cannot retaliate.
And compared to Subs against Subs, in which all defendings Subs still keep their roll @1, it seems very strange and quite unhistorical: Subs can retaliate while Destroyers can’t.To Der Kuenstler,
I’m wondering if you get a similar issue with your Subs on the 1:1 DD’s blocking capacity?
And, if not, why?
Is it because of your Classic transports, used as first casualties, thus letting DDs retaliate?
Or because in your play-test all Subs were going Convoy raiding instead of chasing DDs and TPs?
Or maybe, you didn’t see this as an issue?In my house rules if one sub attacks one DD, the DD still takes away all of the sub’s special abilities - it does not get a free shot - it fights as regular. If 2 subs attack one DD, the DD takes away the special abilities of one of the subs, so only one sub gets a first shot attack.
The way to keep subs under control with the 1:1 rule is not to let them outnumber your DDs. The US and Britain can both buy DDs vs Germans subs so this shouldn’t be a problem for them. Also, the DD’s should be aggressive and go attack every sub they can see with plane backup - that way the subs are vulnerable defending @ 1 and likely to get killed before they can escape.
One historical accuracy issue which can rise about the 1 Sub :1 Destroyer blocker rule is that it allows for First Shot Strike against Destroyers which once picked up as casualty (which should occur since it is a fodder unit made to protect the capital warships) never get a chance to retaliate. Does this happen very often? Too often?
It is clear that this cannot happen with OOB Destroyer.
For now, I can just say that rising the cost of Submarine to 8 IPCs (along with an attack factor of 3) makes things more even on the number produces for the IPCs invested.
With Subs at 6 IPCs, this imply that a 24 IPCs investment is assuring a one shot surprise strike against 3 Destroyers at 8 IPCs.
Thus making this 1:1 blocker, not exactly an even match.
With both units at 8 IPCs, it is only a matter of strategic IPCs investment choice, both units will be on an even ground.
3 Subs at 8 IPCs against 3 Destroyers at 8 IPCs. Buying Submarines have no immediate advantage over buying Destroyers.
To me, this is an additional reason which make more acceptable this dual changes from OOB:
1- Submarines A3 D1 Cost 8 IPCs
2- Destroyer A2 D2 Cost 8 IPCs, only able to block Sub on 1:1 basis.
If you make destroyers work against subs only on a 1:1 basis, you’ll have to increase sub cost to 8 IPCs or they’ll be grossely overpowered. It’s already tough defending against subs when you need to spend 8 IPCs for every 6 IPCs spent by your opponent. If every sub that isn’t matched also gets to make a first strike, then it gets ridiculously overpowered for the guy buying subs. Either that, or bring their attack down to 1 (but I don’t think that would be enough).
