14L G40 Axisandalliesp (Allies + 10) vs JuanSpain (Axis)

[JuanSpain]

The alternative move is loading in NCM, that is possible if you want to do what I wanted to do. If I did load in Combat move, is because I was not aware that the unload was compulsory, but the move I wanted is the same and legal in NCM.

[JuanSpain]

In fact, what I did is a NCM anticipated, because the units where moving but not involved in any combat.

[axisandalliesplayer]

Failure to understand the rules doesn’t absolve you of any responsibility for outcomes undesirable by you.

[axisandalliesplayer]

I will be editing the Japan results and then taking US later tonight once I eat and do some dishes & laundry.

[JuanSpain]

You should have requested a no edit game if you don´t accept this kind of situations. The move I want can be done in NCM if not possible in Combat move and the result is the one I posted. In fact the engine accepts it both in Combat and Non Combat move. I don´t accept you to edit it, but I can accept a no Edit game going forward from now except for engine bug corrections if you prefer playing that way.

[axisandalliesplayer]

I’m sorry you feel that way. I’m not pressing for a no edit game, but will accept it if that’s the way you want to play moving forward.

@JuanSpain:

The move I want can be done in NCM if not possible in Combat move and the result is the one I posted.

Yes, it was possible for you to have done it that way. But you didn’t.

In fact the engine accepts it both in Combat and Non Combat move.

Triplea is not the arbiter of what is or isn’t allowed. There are multiple issues with triplea not following the rules 100%. Here’s a link of a list Gamer put together.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cS3hFwoBP0rWr3208jw1LAtCvHYa9Ji9uU8PwbCMIwM/edit

The two issues that have come up are 16d and 17.

I don´t accept you to edit it, but I can accept a no Edit game going forward from now except for engine bug corrections if you prefer playing that way.

I will be contacting Gamer to weigh in. But I did bring this up earlier.

@axisandalliesplayer:

I don’t mind changing a buy and we’ve each been editing. But, next time you need to say something prior to the combat rolls that you want to change your buys.  :-P

The intent there was I wouldn’t accept edits after combat.

[JuanSpain]

Ok, lets discuss with Gamer, changing buys after combat has nothing to do with this.

[JuanSpain]

The move I did is legal, possible and, it is just a matter of when the move was done (combat instead of non combat), there was no benefit for me in doing so, as the other combat results where not linked to it and these units where not even taking part of combat action.

We have been playing this game as gentlemen until now, and accepting any change from the opponent, in my case I did not even make you ask for them.

I don´t understand why you become so unflexible now.

[axisandalliesplayer]

Changing combat moves/buys AFTER combat has been resolved can make a huge difference. Most people wouldn’t have let the change in buys go, at least not how you did it without any questions asked about whether it was cool or not. I let it slide, but I did ask that you don’t do it again. I should’ve been more explicit in asking for no edits after combat vs just not changing buys after combat resolution.

I was even willing to let you edit where you landed to add Northern territory to your list of acquisitions. You want flexibility? Ok, I will give you a choice. Either all the ORIGINAL landings take place per the rules or NO landings take place. This is my final post before Gamer weighs in.

[JuanSpain]

It can be a big difference if there is a relationship between the results of the combats and the changes made afterwards, but they were all independent actions. I am always just completing uncompleted moves because they were forgotten, but never taking advantage of knowing the result of a combat.

I don´t know why you bring that so many rounds after it happened…

And in this case, again, all I did was anticipate a NCM to Combat move with the same result and with no link to the other combats.

If we both have been accepting anything you and I forgot and changed with edits all that, you should accept me doing a NCM instead of  Combat Move as I forgot that rule but in the end what I want to do is legal, possible, and I am not taking any advantage in changing the order as there is no link to combat results.

If you feel more confortable, I can repeat the turn with everything done in the correct order and just edit the results of the combats if they result different to the original ones.

[gamerman01]

I have read all the dialogue related to the Japanese transport loading and unloading issue, and now need to look at the turn.

Right now it looks like I need to determine whether Juan gets any advantage from retroactively saying he could have loaded them in NCM and got the same result, or not.

[gamerman01]

There are problems with this turn that neither of you brought up.  These problems are a result of illegally making noncombat moves in the combat movement phase.  Many players have this bad habit.  It causes problems like in this turn.

Before I even talk about the transports:

These combat moves were illegal:
2 Carriers and 2 fighters to 54
Dropping 1 infantry on Queensland and leaving an artillery on the transport
Dropping 1 infantry on WAU and leaving the other ground unit on the transport
Carrier to 42 and carrier to 56
2 fighters, and 3 loaded transports to 42

According to the rulebook, you are actually NOT ALLOWED to make NCM in the Combat movement phase.

Moving the carrier from 63 to 54 caused a problem.  2 aircraft splashed in 64, but shouldn’t have.  Juan is required to move the carrier from 63 to pick up the 2 aircraft that splashed.  This was not possible because he illegally moved the carrier to 54 in the combat movement phase, which technically made the attack of 14 fighters illegal, because only 12 could land safely (6 carriers available), but I’m not saying to remove 2 fighters from the 64 battle.  He just shouldn’t have moved the carrier to 54, which, again, was actually illegal.

More in next post.

[gamerman01]

So for starters, one carrier in 54 should be edited to pick up the fighter/tac that splashed in 64, and the fighter/tac should be edited back on the carrier.

Now the transports.
As I said, it was actually illegal to load the transports in the combat movement phase that did not conduct any combat.
It actually handicaps the player who has the bad habit of making unnecessary NCM in the combat movement phase, because they are committing movements before seeing the dice.

Ruling:
I will require JuanSpain to drop BOTH units on Queensland and WAU, as a consequence of not knowing the rules.
JuanSpain is allowed to make the NCM of transports/carrier/fighters to 42 and 56 as he intended (less one unit in 56 that must be dropped on WAU)
The carrier in 54 should be edited to within one space of 64 (or 64 itself) and the 2 aircraft lost should be edited back on it.
A&Aplayer has the right to refuse the late combat movement on NTE.  If he does refuse it, Juan has the right to NCM those 3 units to any legal place.

I think that’s everything.  Let me know if I missed any areas of contention

[gamerman01]

JuanSpain, like a lot of players, you need to form a new habit.

Many (Most?) players like to make NCM in the Combat movement phase, but when you are playing a variety of players on-line, you need to realize that this practice is actually illegal.  There are reasons it is illegal, and one of them is the carrier/fighter rules, which caused you to illegally lose 2 aircraft stranded in 64.

You need to now be fully aware of the rule that any units loaded onto a transport in combat move MUST ALL be unloaded in an amphibious assault in the combat movement phase.  Some players like to leave a unit on a transport at the end of their turn for this reason - the unit already on the transport and the beginning of the turn does NOT have to be unloaded in the combat movement phase - only the unit(s) that were loaded on the transport during this combat movement phase.

Also, you should not assume that your opponent will accept your late changes.  Technically, it requires opponent approval every time you retroactively make any changes to previous phases.  A player should always mention and request permission for late walk-ins, especially when combat dice have been rolled.

I appreciate the way you both have carried out your disagreement thus far, showing due respect to your fellow gamers.  I trust that my input here will completely resolve your issue, and in the case of JuanSpain, hopefully prevent many future issues.

[JuanSpain]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.9

Game History

Round: 20

Purchase Units - Japanese
            Japanese buy 3 artilleries, 1 fighter, 4 infantry, 8 mech_infantrys and 3 transports; Remaining resources: 6 SuicideAttackTokens; 0 PUs;

Combat Move - Japanese
            12 fighters moved from 26 Sea Zone to 64 Sea Zone
            2 carriers moved from 26 Sea Zone to 64 Sea Zone
            1 destroyer moved from 26 Sea Zone to 64 Sea Zone
            1 fighter moved from 6 Sea Zone to 8 Sea Zone
            1 tactical_bomber moved from 63 Sea Zone to 50 Sea Zone
            1 fighter moved from 63 Sea Zone to 50 Sea Zone
            1 tactical_bomber moved from 50 Sea Zone to 64 Sea Zone
            1 fighter moved from 50 Sea Zone to 64 Sea Zone
            1 mech_infantry moved from Kweichow to Tsinghai
            1 bomber moved from Yunnan to Tsinghai
            1 artillery moved from New Zealand to 63 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from New Zealand to 63 Sea Zone
            1 artillery, 2 carriers, 2 fighters, 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 63 Sea Zone to 54 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from 54 Sea Zone to Queensland
            3 infantry moved from Shan State to 37 Sea Zone
            3 artilleries moved from Shan State to 37 Sea Zone
            3 artilleries, 3 infantry and 3 transports moved from 37 Sea Zone to 56 Sea Zone
            1 carrier moved from 37 Sea Zone to 56 Sea Zone
            1 carrier moved from 37 Sea Zone to 42 Sea Zone
            2 fighters moved from 37 Sea Zone to 56 Sea Zone
            2 fighters moved from 37 Sea Zone to 42 Sea Zone
            3 artilleries moved from French Indo China to 36 Sea Zone
            3 infantry moved from French Indo China to 36 Sea Zone
            3 artilleries, 3 infantry and 3 transports moved from 36 Sea Zone to 42 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from 56 Sea Zone to Western Australia

Combat - Japanese
            Battle in 8 Sea Zone
                Japanese attack with 1 fighter
                Americans defend with 2 transports
                Japanese win with 1 fighter remaining. Battle score for attacker is 14
                Casualties for Americans: 2 transports
            Battle in Tsinghai
                Japanese attack with 1 bomber and 1 mech_infantry
                Russians defend with 1 infantry
                Japanese win, taking Tsinghai from Chinese with 1 bomber and 1 mech_infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
                Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
            Battle in Queensland
            Battle in Western Australia
            Battle in 64 Sea Zone
                Japanese attack with 2 carriers, 1 destroyer, 13 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber
                Americans defend with 2 carriers, 5 destroyers, 4 fighters, 4 submarines and 8 transports
                Units damaged: 2 carriers owned by the Americans
                Units damaged: 1 carrier owned by the Japanese
                Japanese win, taking Queensland from ANZAC, taking Western Australia from ANZAC with 9 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 112
                Casualties for Japanese: 2 carriers, 1 destroyer and 4 fighters
                Casualties for Americans: 2 carriers, 5 destroyers, 4 fighters, 4 submarines and 8 transports

Non Combat Move - Japanese
            1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber could not land in 64 Sea Zone and were removed
            8 fighters moved from 64 Sea Zone to 28 Sea Zone
            4 carriers moved from 26 Sea Zone to 28 Sea Zone
            1 destroyer moved from 26 Sea Zone to 28 Sea Zone
            1 battleship moved from 26 Sea Zone to 28 Sea Zone
            1 fighter moved from 8 Sea Zone to Soviet Far East
            1 carrier, 1 destroyer and 1 fighter moved from 6 Sea Zone to 33 Sea Zone
            1 transport moved from 36 Sea Zone to 19 Sea Zone
            1 bomber moved from Tsinghai to Yunnan
            1 aaGun, 4 armour, 18 artilleries, 11 infantry and 24 mech_infantrys moved from Burma to Yunnan
            4 armour moved from Kweichow to Yunnan
            3 mech_infantrys moved from Kiangsu to Hunan
            2 mech_infantrys moved from Shantung to Hunan
            1 infantry moved from Shantung to Anhwe

Place Units - Japanese
            3 transports placed in 6 Sea Zone
            3 artilleries, 1 fighter and 3 infantry placed in Japan
            1 infantry and 2 mech_infantrys placed in French Indo China
            3 mech_infantrys placed in Kiangsu
            3 mech_infantrys placed in Shantung

Turn Complete - Japanese
            Japanese collect 77 PUs; end with 77 PUs total
            Objective Japanese 3 Control Honolulu Or Sydney Or Calcutta Or Western United States: Japanese met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 82 PUs
            Objective Japanese 4 Control Dutch East Indies: Japanese met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 87 PUs
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Japanese from 56 Sea Zone: 1 artillery, 1 infantry and 1 transport
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Japanese to 55 Sea Zone: 1 transport
            EDIT: Changing ownership of Northern Territory from ANZAC to Japanese
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Japanese to Northern Territory: 1 artillery and 1 infantry
            EDIT: Changing PUs for Japanese from 87 to 88
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Japanese from 54 Sea Zone: 1 artillery and 1 transport
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Japanese to New Zealand: 1 artillery
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Japanese to 54 Sea Zone: 1 transport
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Japanese from 56 Sea Zone: 2 artilleries and 1 transport
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Japanese to Western Australia: 1 artillery
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Japanese to 56 Sea Zone: 1 transport
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Japanese from New Zealand: 1 artillery
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Japanese to Queensland: 1 artillery
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Japanese from 54 Sea Zone: 1 carrier
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Japanese to 64 Sea Zone: 1 carrier, 1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode

[gamerman01]

Juan, did you understand that you do not have to put the carrier in 64?  Anything 3 spaces from New Zealand and 1 space from 64 would work too.

[JuanSpain]

Hi, I understand that the requested changes by gamerman are the attached.

Thank you Gamerman for having spent so much time looking at it.

I usually play with edits for forgotten moves or rules not applied correctly by mistake, but tipically I accept and I am accepted with alternative movements that are ok with the rules if I did wrong the first time, spetially when it is clear that there is no influence from combat results in the turn.

Well… to be honest I accept any change from my opponent… even with combat results involved, and allthough I don´t expect that from all the rest of the players, at least I expect it when it is clear that you are not taking advantage of the sequence order in which things happen. In example leaving 1 art in New Zealand, as I could have just loaded 1 inf in combat move and not 2.

I consider that fairplay, but it is just a way of face a game.

We did not ask for permission on edits during the game, which I think is a common practice, you can always discuss afterwards when you review your opponent´s turn if you think your opponent cheated or did not follow rules and was not just applying a forgotten move with no link to the others. Asking for every edit makes the game very slow, and the same happens with scramble.

Thanks again for your time.

Juan

[JuanSpain]

@Gamerman01:

Juan, did you understand that you do not have to put the carrier in 64?  Anything 3 spaces from New Zealand and 1 space from 64 would work too.

No, I understood that was the only option, I would prefer all grouped in 28.

Thx

[JuanSpain]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.9

Game History

Round: 20

Purchase Units - Japanese
            Japanese buy 3 artilleries, 1 fighter, 4 infantry, 8 mech_infantrys and 3 transports; Remaining resources: 6 SuicideAttackTokens; 0 PUs;

Combat Move - Japanese
            12 fighters moved from 26 Sea Zone to 64 Sea Zone
            2 carriers moved from 26 Sea Zone to 64 Sea Zone
            1 destroyer moved from 26 Sea Zone to 64 Sea Zone
            1 fighter moved from 6 Sea Zone to 8 Sea Zone
            1 tactical_bomber moved from 63 Sea Zone to 50 Sea Zone
            1 fighter moved from 63 Sea Zone to 50 Sea Zone
            1 tactical_bomber moved from 50 Sea Zone to 64 Sea Zone
            1 fighter moved from 50 Sea Zone to 64 Sea Zone
            1 mech_infantry moved from Kweichow to Tsinghai
            1 bomber moved from Yunnan to Tsinghai
            1 artillery moved from New Zealand to 63 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from New Zealand to 63 Sea Zone
            1 artillery, 2 carriers, 2 fighters, 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 63 Sea Zone to 54 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from 54 Sea Zone to Queensland
            3 infantry moved from Shan State to 37 Sea Zone
            3 artilleries moved from Shan State to 37 Sea Zone
            3 artilleries, 3 infantry and 3 transports moved from 37 Sea Zone to 56 Sea Zone
            1 carrier moved from 37 Sea Zone to 56 Sea Zone
            1 carrier moved from 37 Sea Zone to 42 Sea Zone
            2 fighters moved from 37 Sea Zone to 56 Sea Zone
            2 fighters moved from 37 Sea Zone to 42 Sea Zone
            3 artilleries moved from French Indo China to 36 Sea Zone
            3 infantry moved from French Indo China to 36 Sea Zone
            3 artilleries, 3 infantry and 3 transports moved from 36 Sea Zone to 42 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from 56 Sea Zone to Western Australia

Combat - Japanese
            Battle in 8 Sea Zone
                Japanese attack with 1 fighter
                Americans defend with 2 transports
                Japanese win with 1 fighter remaining. Battle score for attacker is 14
                Casualties for Americans: 2 transports
            Battle in Tsinghai
                Japanese attack with 1 bomber and 1 mech_infantry
                Russians defend with 1 infantry
                Japanese win, taking Tsinghai from Chinese with 1 bomber and 1 mech_infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
                Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
            Battle in Queensland
            Battle in Western Australia
            Battle in 64 Sea Zone
                Japanese attack with 2 carriers, 1 destroyer, 13 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber
                Americans defend with 2 carriers, 5 destroyers, 4 fighters, 4 submarines and 8 transports
                Units damaged: 2 carriers owned by the Americans
                Units damaged: 1 carrier owned by the Japanese
                Japanese win, taking Queensland from ANZAC, taking Western Australia from ANZAC with 9 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 112
                Casualties for Japanese: 2 carriers, 1 destroyer and 4 fighters
                Casualties for Americans: 2 carriers, 5 destroyers, 4 fighters, 4 submarines and 8 transports

Non Combat Move - Japanese
            1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber could not land in 64 Sea Zone and were removed
            8 fighters moved from 64 Sea Zone to 28 Sea Zone
            4 carriers moved from 26 Sea Zone to 28 Sea Zone
            1 destroyer moved from 26 Sea Zone to 28 Sea Zone
            1 battleship moved from 26 Sea Zone to 28 Sea Zone
            1 fighter moved from 8 Sea Zone to Soviet Far East
            1 carrier, 1 destroyer and 1 fighter moved from 6 Sea Zone to 33 Sea Zone
            1 transport moved from 36 Sea Zone to 19 Sea Zone
            1 bomber moved from Tsinghai to Yunnan
            1 aaGun, 4 armour, 18 artilleries, 11 infantry and 24 mech_infantrys moved from Burma to Yunnan
            4 armour moved from Kweichow to Yunnan
            3 mech_infantrys moved from Kiangsu to Hunan
            2 mech_infantrys moved from Shantung to Hunan
            1 infantry moved from Shantung to Anhwe

Place Units - Japanese
            3 transports placed in 6 Sea Zone
            3 artilleries, 1 fighter and 3 infantry placed in Japan
            1 infantry and 2 mech_infantrys placed in French Indo China
            3 mech_infantrys placed in Kiangsu
            3 mech_infantrys placed in Shantung

Turn Complete - Japanese
            Japanese collect 77 PUs; end with 77 PUs total
            Objective Japanese 3 Control Honolulu Or Sydney Or Calcutta Or Western United States: Japanese met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 82 PUs
            Objective Japanese 4 Control Dutch East Indies: Japanese met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 87 PUs
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Japanese from 56 Sea Zone: 1 artillery, 1 infantry and 1 transport
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Japanese to 55 Sea Zone: 1 transport
            EDIT: Changing ownership of Northern Territory from ANZAC to Japanese
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Japanese to Northern Territory: 1 artillery and 1 infantry
            EDIT: Changing PUs for Japanese from 87 to 88
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Japanese from 54 Sea Zone: 1 artillery and 1 transport
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Japanese to New Zealand: 1 artillery
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Japanese to 54 Sea Zone: 1 transport
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Japanese from 56 Sea Zone: 2 artilleries and 1 transport
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Japanese to Western Australia: 1 artillery
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Japanese to 56 Sea Zone: 1 transport
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Japanese from New Zealand: 1 artillery
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Japanese to Queensland: 1 artillery
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Japanese from 54 Sea Zone: 1 carrier
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Japanese to 64 Sea Zone: 1 carrier, 1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Japanese from 64 Sea Zone: 1 carrier, 1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Japanese to 28 Sea Zone: 1 carrier, 1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode

[axisandalliesplayer]

Thanks Gamer for clarifying things and Juanspain, my apologies. I will take my turn by tomorrow night, don’t know if you saw my thread, but I had a situation in the family.