13L G40 NT Arathorn (Axis) vs. Infrastructure (Allies +13)

[gamerman01]

Page 15, Europe 2nd edition manual, blue box, first sentence under Combat:

A power can’t attack a territory controlled by or containing units belonging to a power with which it is not at war.

[gamerman01]

Has been #12 on my Triple A issues list

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cS3hFwoBP0rWr3208jw1LAtCvHYa9Ji9uU8PwbCMIwM/edit

[arathorn]

@JDOW:

Europe Rulebook 2nd Edition p. 15

A tank can �blitz� by moving through an unoccupied hostile territory as the first part of a move that can end in a
friendly or hostile territory

However, I apologize to invade but I cannot resist to add this fun fact.

I ran the simulation 20000 times initially and now have a look at the result! :D

I did the same thing :)

18.02 LOL

Good thing the whole move was illegal - or that would have been grounds for ANOTHER debate :)

[MrRoboto]

@JDOW:

However, I apologize to invade but I cannot resist to add this fun fact.

I ran the simulation 20000 times initially and now have a look at the result! :D

What exactly are you pointing at?

[arathorn]

@MrRoboto:

@JDOW:

However, I apologize to invade but I cannot resist to add this fun fact.

I ran the simulation 20000 times initially and now have a look at the result! :D

What exactly are you pointing at?

IF the move had been legal, then the LL reroll option would have been up for debate.

[gamerman01]

@arathorn:

Good thing the whole move was illegal - or that would have been grounds for ANOTHER debate :)

No kidding  :-)

MrRoboto, JDOW is pointing at the fact that it is barely below 18, which is the threshold for triggering a LL re-roll by agreement between the two players

[JDOW]

@arathorn:

@JDOW:

Europe Rulebook 2nd Edition p. 15

A tank can �blitz� by moving through an unoccupied hostile territory as the first part of a move that can end in a
friendly or hostile territory

However, I apologize to invade but I cannot resist to add this fun fact.

I ran the simulation 20000 times initially and now have a look at the result! :D

LOOL, and the average of the 40k simulations is 17,99 then, how sick is that?
I is NOT possible to have a closer situation for the 30 IPC reroll rule I guess^^

I did the same thing :)

18.02 LOL

Good thing the whole move was illegal - or that would have been grounds for ANOTHER debate :)

[JDOW]

@arathorn:

@JDOW:

Europe Rulebook 2nd Edition p. 15

A tank can �blitz� by moving through an unoccupied hostile territory as the first part of a move that can end in a
friendly or hostile territory

However, I apologize to invade but I cannot resist to add this fun fact.

I ran the simulation 20000 times initially and now have a look at the result! :D

I did the same thing :)

18.02 LOL

Good thing the whole move was illegal - or that would have been grounds for ANOTHER debate :)

without quotation mess this time^^

LOOL, and the average of the 40k simulations is 17,99 then, how sick is that?
I is NOT possible to have a closer situation for the 30 IPC reroll rule I guess^^

[MrRoboto]

Thank god the move is invalid! It would have been one hell of a job for Gamerman :-)
And with Berlin conquered I think the allies would have eventually won the game here. Now it’s looking extremely grim, though.

[JDOW]

@MrRoboto:

Thank god the move is invalid! It would have been one hell of a job for Gamerman :-)
And with Berlin conquered I think the allies would have eventually won the game here. Now it’s looking extremely grim, though.

Even if this is a theoretical discussion, I guess the easiest solution would have been to agree on a certain sample size like 100k (or 1M if somebody has too much time^^) and the result of that simulation is decisive then, even if there might be some variance, that is what A&A players have been able to deal with:D

[arathorn]

But even with such a sample size, the swing was RIGHT around 18.
You got 17.97 and I got 18.02 after 20000. So it’s never going to be good enough.

[gamerman01]

And this is one of the reasons that basing a low luck re-roll on TUV swing is not a very good idea.

Consider this as well:
If Infrastructure had realized that this result was close to the threshold, he could have deliberately chosen more expensive casualties and then Germany would not have the re-roll option.
So you want good luck, but not great luck, because then the other player could force a re-roll?

This house rule is in much need for improvement.

Also, if Germany spent 10 for the re-roll and then still lost Berlin, this ends up being Russia who pays for the re-roll because then she plunders 10 IPC’s less.  So if you’re going to play with a house rule that you pay for LL re-rolls, you need a special condition in there for if a capital is falling.

[JDOW]

@arathorn:

But even with such a sample size, the swing was RIGHT around 18.
You got 17.97 and I got 18.02 after 20000. So it’s never going to be good enough.

Yeah, that’s what I meant with the variance, so there might be luck involved in any kind of simulation. It could go either way! :)

[Major Major]

@Gamerman01:

HOLD EVERYTHING

Infrastructure’s invasion of Berlin with ground units was not even legal in the first place.
R4 needs to be redone

Gamerman,

Are you monitoring every game now for glitches?  I had a game i lost back in the spring that was due to rule glitch can we go back now and redo that game?  How far past a glitch not being recognized can a game go back?  Your setting a strange precendent breaking into a game and setting a rule fix after dice have been rolled.  Do you have the time to monitor and correct and have games go back?  You are ambitious!

Infrasructure.

[gamerman01]

@Infrastructure:

@Gamerman01:

HOLD EVERYTHING

Infrastructure’s invasion of Berlin with ground units was not even legal in the first place.
R4 needs to be redone

Gamerman,

Are you monitoring every game now for glitches?

No.

I had a game i lost back in the spring that was due to rule glitch can we go back now and redo that game?  How far past a glitch not being recognized can a game go back?  Your setting a strange precendent breaking into a game and setting a rule fix after dice have been rolled.  Do you have the time to monitor and correct and have games go back?  You are ambitious!

Infrasructure.

You are responsible for knowing the rules of the game.  Arathorn is lucky I caught this one for him.  The reason I caught it is because you two have required me to moderate about 4 times in this game with your disagreements.  Once I’ve posted to a thread, I see everything that happens in it to completion because it comes up in my “show replies to threads you’ve posted in”

If you can get the other player to fix the rules error in another game and replay it from there, good luck.  Like I said, Arathorn is lucky I caught this one right away.

Do you think you do not need to re-do R4?  Are you resentful that I caught this major error right away and corrected it?  You are one interesting customer, Infrastructure, and that’s putting it nicely.

[JDOW]

@Infrastructure:

Your setting a strange precendent breaking into a game and setting a rule fix after dice have been rolled.

I have to admit that this made me curios so that I have to ask that remark:

It is known by every player that tripleA neither prevents several illegal actions nor prevents you from rolling dice after doing illegal moves. So when you claim that rolling dice is the point of no return every player could just create facts by doing illegal moves and just roll the dices, nobody can stop anybody from that. So to me your posts reads like that corrections of illegal moves is almost impossible.

[JDOW]

“Make” that remark

[boldfresh]

@Infrastructure:

@Gamerman01:

HOLD EVERYTHING

Infrastructure’s invasion of Berlin with ground units was not even legal in the first place.
R4 needs to be redone

Gamerman,

Are you monitoring every game now for glitches?  I had a game i lost back in the spring that was due to rule glitch can we go back now and redo that game?  How far past a glitch not being recognized can a game go back?  Your setting a strange precendent breaking into a game and setting a rule fix after dice have been rolled.  Do you have the time to monitor and correct and have games go back?  You are ambitious!

Infrasructure.

Jenn specifically addresses procedures involving illegal moves in the league rules.  How can you possibly be upset that someone caught a giant error before the game progressed?  I believe Jenn does say there is a period of time in which if the mistake is not caught, it can no longer be changed.

[boldfresh]

Dare I ask the question of whether or not Infrastructure was aware this move was illegal before he made it?  :-P

[arathorn]

@Infrastructure:

@Gamerman01:

HOLD EVERYTHING

Infrastructure’s invasion of Berlin with ground units was not even legal in the first place.
R4 needs to be redone

Gamerman,

Are you monitoring every game now for glitches?  I had a game i lost back in the spring that was due to rule glitch can we go back now and redo that game?  How far past a glitch not being recognized can a game go back?  Your setting a strange precendent breaking into a game and setting a rule fix after dice have been rolled.  Do you have the time to monitor and correct and have games go back?  You are ambitious!

Infrasructure.

He did not monitor it. After a discussion where both Gamer, JDOW and myself were involved, both JDOW and I made comments that made Gamer check it out. I said something like “I wish I had not forgotten to DOW with Italy”. That’s when Gamer checked and realised that the move was illegal. I then went to the rules, and found out that Gamer was of course, as usual, correct about the move.