13L G40 NT Arathorn (Axis) vs. Infrastructure (Allies +13)

[gamerman01]

@arathorn:

Good thing the whole move was illegal - or that would have been grounds for ANOTHER debate :)

No kidding  :-)

MrRoboto, JDOW is pointing at the fact that it is barely below 18, which is the threshold for triggering a LL re-roll by agreement between the two players

[JDOW]

@arathorn:

@JDOW:

Europe Rulebook 2nd Edition p. 15

A tank can �blitz� by moving through an unoccupied hostile territory as the first part of a move that can end in a
friendly or hostile territory

However, I apologize to invade but I cannot resist to add this fun fact.

I ran the simulation 20000 times initially and now have a look at the result! :D

LOOL, and the average of the 40k simulations is 17,99 then, how sick is that?
I is NOT possible to have a closer situation for the 30 IPC reroll rule I guess^^

I did the same thing :)

18.02 LOL

Good thing the whole move was illegal - or that would have been grounds for ANOTHER debate :)

[JDOW]

@arathorn:

@JDOW:

Europe Rulebook 2nd Edition p. 15

A tank can �blitz� by moving through an unoccupied hostile territory as the first part of a move that can end in a
friendly or hostile territory

However, I apologize to invade but I cannot resist to add this fun fact.

I ran the simulation 20000 times initially and now have a look at the result! :D

I did the same thing :)

18.02 LOL

Good thing the whole move was illegal - or that would have been grounds for ANOTHER debate :)

without quotation mess this time^^

LOOL, and the average of the 40k simulations is 17,99 then, how sick is that?
I is NOT possible to have a closer situation for the 30 IPC reroll rule I guess^^

[MrRoboto]

Thank god the move is invalid! It would have been one hell of a job for Gamerman :-)
And with Berlin conquered I think the allies would have eventually won the game here. Now it’s looking extremely grim, though.

[JDOW]

@MrRoboto:

Thank god the move is invalid! It would have been one hell of a job for Gamerman :-)
And with Berlin conquered I think the allies would have eventually won the game here. Now it’s looking extremely grim, though.

Even if this is a theoretical discussion, I guess the easiest solution would have been to agree on a certain sample size like 100k (or 1M if somebody has too much time^^) and the result of that simulation is decisive then, even if there might be some variance, that is what A&A players have been able to deal with:D

[arathorn]

But even with such a sample size, the swing was RIGHT around 18.
You got 17.97 and I got 18.02 after 20000. So it’s never going to be good enough.

[gamerman01]

And this is one of the reasons that basing a low luck re-roll on TUV swing is not a very good idea.

Consider this as well:
If Infrastructure had realized that this result was close to the threshold, he could have deliberately chosen more expensive casualties and then Germany would not have the re-roll option.
So you want good luck, but not great luck, because then the other player could force a re-roll?

This house rule is in much need for improvement.

Also, if Germany spent 10 for the re-roll and then still lost Berlin, this ends up being Russia who pays for the re-roll because then she plunders 10 IPC’s less.  So if you’re going to play with a house rule that you pay for LL re-rolls, you need a special condition in there for if a capital is falling.

[JDOW]

@arathorn:

But even with such a sample size, the swing was RIGHT around 18.
You got 17.97 and I got 18.02 after 20000. So it’s never going to be good enough.

Yeah, that’s what I meant with the variance, so there might be luck involved in any kind of simulation. It could go either way! :)

[Major Major]

@Gamerman01:

HOLD EVERYTHING

Infrastructure’s invasion of Berlin with ground units was not even legal in the first place.
R4 needs to be redone

Gamerman,

Are you monitoring every game now for glitches?  I had a game i lost back in the spring that was due to rule glitch can we go back now and redo that game?  How far past a glitch not being recognized can a game go back?  Your setting a strange precendent breaking into a game and setting a rule fix after dice have been rolled.  Do you have the time to monitor and correct and have games go back?  You are ambitious!

Infrasructure.

[gamerman01]

@Infrastructure:

@Gamerman01:

HOLD EVERYTHING

Infrastructure’s invasion of Berlin with ground units was not even legal in the first place.
R4 needs to be redone

Gamerman,

Are you monitoring every game now for glitches?

No.

I had a game i lost back in the spring that was due to rule glitch can we go back now and redo that game?  How far past a glitch not being recognized can a game go back?  Your setting a strange precendent breaking into a game and setting a rule fix after dice have been rolled.  Do you have the time to monitor and correct and have games go back?  You are ambitious!

Infrasructure.

You are responsible for knowing the rules of the game.  Arathorn is lucky I caught this one for him.  The reason I caught it is because you two have required me to moderate about 4 times in this game with your disagreements.  Once I’ve posted to a thread, I see everything that happens in it to completion because it comes up in my “show replies to threads you’ve posted in”

If you can get the other player to fix the rules error in another game and replay it from there, good luck.  Like I said, Arathorn is lucky I caught this one right away.

Do you think you do not need to re-do R4?  Are you resentful that I caught this major error right away and corrected it?  You are one interesting customer, Infrastructure, and that’s putting it nicely.

[JDOW]

@Infrastructure:

Your setting a strange precendent breaking into a game and setting a rule fix after dice have been rolled.

I have to admit that this made me curios so that I have to ask that remark:

It is known by every player that tripleA neither prevents several illegal actions nor prevents you from rolling dice after doing illegal moves. So when you claim that rolling dice is the point of no return every player could just create facts by doing illegal moves and just roll the dices, nobody can stop anybody from that. So to me your posts reads like that corrections of illegal moves is almost impossible.

[JDOW]

“Make” that remark

[boldfresh]

@Infrastructure:

@Gamerman01:

HOLD EVERYTHING

Infrastructure’s invasion of Berlin with ground units was not even legal in the first place.
R4 needs to be redone

Gamerman,

Are you monitoring every game now for glitches?  I had a game i lost back in the spring that was due to rule glitch can we go back now and redo that game?  How far past a glitch not being recognized can a game go back?  Your setting a strange precendent breaking into a game and setting a rule fix after dice have been rolled.  Do you have the time to monitor and correct and have games go back?  You are ambitious!

Infrasructure.

Jenn specifically addresses procedures involving illegal moves in the league rules.  How can you possibly be upset that someone caught a giant error before the game progressed?  I believe Jenn does say there is a period of time in which if the mistake is not caught, it can no longer be changed.

[boldfresh]

Dare I ask the question of whether or not Infrastructure was aware this move was illegal before he made it?  :-P

[arathorn]

@Infrastructure:

@Gamerman01:

HOLD EVERYTHING

Infrastructure’s invasion of Berlin with ground units was not even legal in the first place.
R4 needs to be redone

Gamerman,

Are you monitoring every game now for glitches?  I had a game i lost back in the spring that was due to rule glitch can we go back now and redo that game?  How far past a glitch not being recognized can a game go back?  Your setting a strange precendent breaking into a game and setting a rule fix after dice have been rolled.  Do you have the time to monitor and correct and have games go back?  You are ambitious!

Infrasructure.

He did not monitor it. After a discussion where both Gamer, JDOW and myself were involved, both JDOW and I made comments that made Gamer check it out. I said something like “I wish I had not forgotten to DOW with Italy”. That’s when Gamer checked and realised that the move was illegal. I then went to the rules, and found out that Gamer was of course, as usual, correct about the move.

[Major Major]

I always want a clean game and would never make an illegal move intentionally.  That is cheating.

At G3 of this game I stopped playing this game as I would normally play any game.  I realized I was playing an opponent that wanted a cheap win over a good game.  I adjusted my game strategy for this game only to match that.  I would NEVER play any game in the style I am playing this one under any other circumstance.  If Arathorn states that he asked gamerman to adjudicate and gamerman found a problem, than I will redo R4.

Illegal moves have happened in a signifigant percentage of this season’s games without being known and the games have counted.  I feel gamermans decisions in this serves an interesting precedent.  I have to feel that arathorn in my position would want it to stick since a move had been made.  Again I am playing this game responding to my opponent’s game play.

Gamerman,
You have been asked two possibly 3 times to adjudicate in this game and I thank you for your time and patience.  I am playing a game that is leaving a really bad taste in my mouth mostly because playing for cheap win is hard for me. 
I take it you are stating that if you catch any game with a rule misque from here on out that that game will be returned to the turn before the rule error?  Is that accurate or is there a turn or time limit to the missed error going through?

[gamerman01]

First of all, obviously the only time a game would continue after an illegal move would be if the player suffering from the illegal move did not realize that the move was illegal.  Because of this it’s their own problem if they lose the game because they didn’t know the rules.

No one has accused you of making an illegal move intentionally!  I certainly give you the benefit of the doubt that you were unaware that you were breaking any rules.  Arathorn obviously did not realize the move was illegal, either.  However, I happened to be watching this game closely because I had posted in it and because I have been needed to rule on at least 3 issues already.  I happened to notice that you blitzed Poland illegally, so am requiring you to re-do R4.

This does not set precedent.  Any time anyone sees an illegal move as a game is being played, they should raise that to the attention of the players involved, and it should be immediately resolved.  I think this is obvious.  This huge error was caught pretty much immediately as no game play has occurred subsequent to the R4.  The R4 combat move was illegal, and the dice you rolled were illegal.  Arathorn did not realize this at first, as he was rolling the LL re-roll.  But that doesn’t matter.  A player (happened to be me) saw the illegal move and brought it to your attention.  R4 needs to be completely redone because the combat move was illegal and was pretty much caught immediately (J turn has not started).

It is irrelevant to interrogate me about whether I would make some other player go back who knows how many rounds to fix an illegal move.  You made an illegal move, it was caught immediately, so you need to make a legal move to replace it.

[MrRoboto]

@Infrastructure:

Illegal moves have happened in a signifigant percentage of this season’s games without being known and the games have counted.

It’s our job to know the rule, we players. If an error stays undetected because the other player does not know about it or just did not check, it’s his fault only. I’ve forgotten to adjust China’s IPC after suffering convoy in my early games but I can’t blame anyone but me.

@Infrastructure:

I have to feel that arathorn in my position would want it to stick since a move had been made.

The error happened in R4 and J4 hasn’t been done afterwards. How much faster do you want an error to be noticed?

I have to say Infrastructure, after seeing your behavior in this game, I decided for me, personally, to not play another match against/with you. I even regret agreeing to your proposal with our second game, although I will stick to it of course.

[Major Major]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.7

Game History

Round: 4

Politics - Russians
            Russians takes Political Action: Political Action Russians To War With Germans
                Russians succeeds on action: Political Action Russians To War With Germans: Changing Relationship for Germans and Russians from Neutrality to War
                Russians succeeds on action: Political Action Russians To War With Germans: Changing Relationship for Russians and British from Neutrality to Allied
                Russians succeeds on action: Political Action Russians To War With Germans: Changing Relationship for Russians and French from Neutrality to Allied
                Russians succeeds on action: Political Action Russians To War With Germans: Changing Relationship for Russians and Neutral_Allies from Neutrality to Friendly_Neutral
                Russians succeeds on action: Political Action Russians To War With Germans: Changing Relationship for Russians and Neutral_Axis from Neutrality to Unfriendly_Neutral

Purchase Units - Russians
            Russians buy 3 artilleries and 9 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat Move - Russians
            1 infantry moved from Karelia to Finland
                  Russians take Finland from Germans
            1 infantry moved from Baltic States to Poland
                  Russians take Poland from Germans
            1 infantry moved from Bessarabia to Romania
                  Russians take Romania from Germans
            1 infantry moved from Manchuria to Jehol
                  Chinese take Jehol from Japanese

Combat - Russians

Non Combat Move - Russians
            1 infantry moved from Novgorod to Karelia
            2 aaGuns, 2 armour, 3 artilleries, 30 infantry and 2 mech_infantrys moved from Eastern Poland to Romania
            2 infantry moved from Bessarabia to Romania
            1 infantry moved from Baltic States to Eastern Poland
            1 aaGun moved from Baltic States to Novgorod
            3 infantry moved from Bryansk to Western Ukraine
            1 artillery moved from Ukraine to Western Ukraine
            1 artillery and 3 infantry moved from Ukraine to Bessarabia
            1 mech_infantry moved from Volgograd to Northwest Persia
                  Russians take Northwest Persia from Neutral_Allies
            3 infantry moved from Russia to Bryansk
            2 infantry moved from Kansu to Tsinghai
            1 fighter moved from Yenisey to Russia
            1 infantry moved from Korea to Manchuria
            2 aaGuns and 16 infantry moved from Manchuria to Jehol

Place Units - Russians
            1 artillery and 2 infantry placed in Novgorod
            1 artillery and 2 infantry placed in Ukraine
            Russians undo move 2.
            2 artilleries and 1 infantry placed in Ukraine
            6 infantry placed in Russia

Turn Complete - Russians
            Total Cost from Convoy Blockades: 3
                Rolling for Convoy Blockade Damage in 6 Sea Zone. Rolls: 1,3,5
            Russians collect 44 PUs (3 lost to blockades); end with 44 PUs total
            Trigger Russians 1 Lend Lease: Russians met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 49 PUs
            Objective Russians 2 Spread Of Communism: Russians met a national objective for an additional 9 PUs; end with 58 PUs

[Major Major]

I hold you to nothing.  DOn’t play if you don’t want to robotto.  I’ve enjoyed our game and am sorry you feel this way.