@bobdole Right. No lead can be in any consumer products, except if you live in China, North Korea, or Russia. So don’t ever worry
Who was worse?
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It’s funny that you can say this and that about Hitler and Stalin, but given %, Khan actually had done way more crazy poop than those two combined and he had no tech. He’s also responsible for almost 10% of the genetic makeup of the world (High five bro! thank goodness no alimony payments back then). To say Stalin didn’t directly effect the numbers is weird becaus I’m sure Hitler didn’t personnally execute every person either…
While the poll was to get a conversation going, c’mon man…it has Steinbrenner and Dukat in it…how serious are you going to take this…I almost added Colonel Sanders, but realized he only was killing criminal chickens that deserved to die, so there is no crime in that.
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I almost added Colonel Sanders, but realized he only was killing criminal chickens that deserved to die, so there is no crime in that.
No that white devil killed Chickens, and caused 50 years of heart disease leading to 100 million deaths while at the same time fleecing them out of money for grease. What a way to die :evil:
In space, their are no “Criminal Chickens”
Note: These men all died within 5 years after this meal…
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Here’s part of my point: how is killing “your own” people any worse than killing anyone else? They are all intrinsically the same.
Ultimately I suppose that could be true, with an “all lives are the same” reasoning. However, most people justify their assertions by how “bad” a person was in their killing by who and how they killed. This does not help my point, but it does help yours. Hitler is the universally recognized “baddest guy” because he was responsible for organizing perhaps the most grotesque mass genocide in history. That and he was the enemy of both the capitalists and the communists, who both rule the world today. Winners write the textbooks and make the villians.
My point is that maybe, as you say, there is no difference between killing your own and killing somebody elses. If that is true, the guy with the highest body count wins. Ultimately that would have to be Stalin. And if you want to blame Hitler for the entire World War, which he is not at fault for, and then count all those bodies (even his own and Axis armies) toward his “credit”, I think it is perfectly acceptable to give Stalin credit for the widespread death under communism, if only while he was alive. Though his legacy in forming and supporting authoritarian communism would beg that he be associated with communism’s enduring violence even long after his death.
First, your source is highly misleading and pretty much completely wrong. The methodology is crap as well. I don’t have the time to detail everything, but it’s complete BS to pin all those deaths on Stalin.
Directly attributed deaths to Stalin are around 3 million from official Soviet Records. These are ordered executions, purges, and death during imprisonment. The truth is likely higher, and some suggest anywhere from 4 million to 10 million.
If you want to include famines during his reign, which the blame is also debatable, you’ll garnish some where around 7 million, maybe more if you’re feeling generous on what constitutes actual blame on what Stalin did or didn’t do.All in all, most seem to suggest 15 million at a minimum, 20 million at a maximum (which you said, but that’s again part of the debate). That’s a fairly wide margin, though. Oh, and included in those death tolls are around 1 million German civilians and POWs. You know, from the war Hitler started.
Okay. Let’s say you are right, Stalin kills 20 million max and Hitler kills 12 million max. … Who is worse? Stalin because he killed more, or Hitler because he did it in a more inhumane way? That is your call to make, but my point was that in terms of numbers, it is easier to say Stalin was worse. Not that I am arguing for that, just that you could.
And if you think communism is to blame, then why don’t you blame Karl Marx?
You know, that is a darn good idea… It is all Karl Marx’s fault. The real bastard.
No. Communism itself is not to blame, it is an idea. The person to blame is the one who took communism and used it to aggrandize power and force the deaths of millions. Stalin was the first and the model for all who followed. He is most directly to blame for the next two worst communist countries: China and North Korea. Stalin and the USSR made them.
I am not going to argue for this cause and effect “BS”, as you said, because I don’t have to. Numerically, Stalin is worse than Hitler and that is a fact. Whether you want to argue who was worse based on who they killed and the method is a different story.
However, if blaming Stalin for related communist regimes is bogus then saying that Hitler is directly responsible for the 50-60 million deaths of WWII is just as bogus. Should Emperor Hirohito or Hideki Tojo be blamed for all the deaths of the Pacific/Asiatic war, including the destruction brought upon their own people, because “they started it”?
So you’re telling me that while Stalin gets pinned for deaths that occur well after he’s dead and in completely different countries as well, the same person doesn’t use the same methodology for Hitler? Doesn’t even include the entire length of WW2, or the deaths caused by it?
The credit for Stalin on all those deaths was assigned by me, not the source, which seems to have very accurate and reliable numbers. And in fact, his methodology on the Nazis is much better than it is for the Communists. Mostly, this is because there was only ever one Nazi state in history while there have been many communist states. How would you take into account deaths by the Nazis/Hitler after May 1945? Hitler was dead and Nazi rule in Gemany was over… there were no Nazis in power to kill anyone else. Hitler and his system were dead, whereas Stalin’s system (and very nature of the government he created) lived on well after his death. You cannot really blame the Nazis for post-war deaths like starvation or disease or poverty can you? The Allies rectified much of that situation. Wouldn’t you know it was the Communists who didn’t…
Do I need to continue on how terrible your source is?
No. It was poorly used, but not poor itself. Can you find statistical fault in the data? I did not.
[It’s a matter of a poll and simple opinion. And I was pretty damn sure that just about everyone would answer that the worst person to ever exist was Hitler.Â
[/quote]Yeah, any dummy off the street will pick Hitler given the choice of the two (or even anyone else on the list). Fortunately, our community here is a little more knowledgeable than the general populace. As noted by IL.
Not that you cannot make a damn good case for Hitler, because you can and you are. However, if a life is a life and each is equal, why not a communist like Stalin who both killed in his own and supported other regimes/governments to do the same? If you had to ask yourself who was more successful, you would pick Stalin. He lived longer, likely killed more, and perpetuated the culture of death and crushing of freedom in communism the world round. Hitler was less evil if only for the fact that he did not live to see his dream succeed. Stalin did, and we continue to struggle with the mess he made today. Hitler’s World War II has been cleaned up for some time now.
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As for Gul Madred, how can you top such “Dukat-isms” as…
A true victory is to make your enemy see they were wrong to oppose you in the first place. To force them to acknowledge your greatness.
A good interrogator doesn’t allow his subject to die; you lose the advantage.
Cardassians don’t make mistakes.
I prefer the title ‘Gul’ - So much more hands-on than ‘Legate’, hm? And less pretentious than the other alternatives - President, Emperor, First Minister - Emissary!
I’m not just and Cardassian…I’m Gul Dukat!
Always been a Next Generation guy myself. Though I have watched a bit of DS9. TNG is decidedly much better though.
And I am sorry, but none of those lines quite compare to “There are FOUR LIGHTS!”
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Gul Dukat should not be on this list. He’s not even real.
And if you keep him, also add Lucas McCain ( “The rifleman”), Ethyl Mertz, and Moe Howard to your list of killers.
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@Imperious:
Gul Dukat should not be on this list. He’s not even real.
I thought I would just stick to pyschopaths….
I did several research projects on Stalin going through school and 20 million would be a very very conservative number. He did have a lot more years on Hitler though, because he was there from the beginning, so that’s why you will find the numbers will never be solid…the Revolution itself put a lot of blood on Stalin’s hands…and after Lenin’s stroke, he had a free pass as essentially being the #2 or 3 (depending on how you look at it)…
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oops…guess I messed up the quote block…
As for TNG vs. DS9…TNG messed up by not having enough arc episodes…my favorite episodes involve the Romulans for TNG…a blown opportunity to do more with it but did decent with the Klingon Civil war and others due to Romulan interference. It was one thing I was happy about with Enterprise was the arc… And we shall not mention that one show with the female in charge that got them lost…AWFUL!
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And I am sorry, but none of those lines quite compare to “There are FOUR LIGHTS!”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQBGvq81Yz8&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL292B47AAC5809BA7
you KNEW this was coming! 8-)
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And I am sorry, but none of those lines quite compare to “There are FOUR LIGHTS!”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQBGvq81Yz8&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL292B47AAC5809BA7
you KNEW this was coming! 8-)
Well of course! We all love the Picard Song. Though I can’t say I have ever seen the Sims version.
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Hitler vs Stalin, who had the best mustache?
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The colonel of course.
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@ABWorsham:
Hitler vs Stalin, who had the best mustache?
This is the real question!
Vote one for Hitler. What a trend setter… nobody will ever wear it again. They broke the mold with Hitler.
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Since WWII only one man has had the balls to wear that mustache. Michael Jordan. Stalins 'stache has been sported by every middle eastern dictator and 70’s porn star around. If you break the mold you win. Hitler moustache.
As to the bigger c–- s------ piece of s—? Stalin destroyed Russia and it has still not recovered. He took the best and the brightest and wiped them out. If you were smarter than Stalin you died. This philosophy ruined one of the best people’s in the world.
As to communism. We still have yet to witness state scale communism. USSR was a dictatorship with cruel rationing of its people. Not a communist state.
Marx’ ideas were no worse than Smith’s (judging by the state of the world now) but because Stalin got the steering wheel it got all f-d up. He was a back alley goon no better than that and he stole control of one of the greatest people on the planet. You can blame almost all of Russia’s current problems on the trauma that Stalin forced on the USSR.
20 million is too low a number. Without comrade Stalin there might have been better leadership on the Ostfront and more efficient management of the war rather than ‘let’s throw a shit ton of untrained troops at them until they can’t climb over the gore’
That said, both Stalin and Hitler almost make me hope that various religions are right and there is a Hell and it is 10 times more perverted than our sickest writers have imagined.
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@Most:
You can blame almost all of Russia’s current problems on the trauma that Stalin forced on the USSR.
Stalin can be blamed – and rightly so – for the enormous harm he did to the USSR and for its various long-term consequences, but I think it’s a stretch to blame “almost all of Russia’s current problems” on him. Stalin is in the middle of a long list of autocratic Russian rulers going back to the days of the tsars and forward to (depending on one’s views) either the recent past or the present. Nicholas II, Leonid Brezhnev and their ilk may have been less homicidal than Stalin, but they still scored pretty high when it came to popular repression and adminstrative incompetence.
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Not that you cannot make a damn good case for Hitler, because you can and you are. However, if a life is a life and each is equal, why not a communist like Stalin who both killed in his own and supported other regimes/governments to do the same? If you had to ask yourself who was more successful, you would pick Stalin. He lived longer, likely killed more, and perpetuated the culture of death and crushing of freedom in communism the world round. Hitler was less evil if only for the fact that he did not live to see his dream succeed. Stalin did, and we continue to struggle with the mess he made today. Hitler’s World War II has been cleaned up for some time now.
I haven’t been on here to make a reply because of all that’s been going on, so it’s mostly a dropped discussion, but thought I’d make a few comments.
Stalin simply can not be blamed for everything. Neither can Hitler, but I think everyone can agree what damage he wrought on the world. I didn’t give him credit for the entire war, but the fatality count is extremely high for a short amount of time.
Stalin, on the other hand, appears to be the culprit (by your opinion and others on here) for everything before he was in power, and after he was dead. This is absurd. Stalin had a larger window of rule than Hitler, but not by much. And the failure of his rule/inaction/severity of his policies have some room for debate, but I included them. As I said, 20 million is on the larger end of the scale of those who’ve given the issue much thought. It’s more than a simple “well China was communist so therefore STALIN”. It doesn’t work that way.
BTW, it only took 3 years after Stalin’s death for Khrushchev to enact Destalinization.
Yeah, any dummy off the street will pick Hitler given the choice of the two (or even anyone else on the list). Fortunately, our community here is a little more knowledgeable than the general populace. As noted by IL.
Apparently not. It seems like a knee jerk reaction to communism to me and throwing anything that will stick at a guy that had very little to do with more than half of what you attribute to him.
I did several research projects on Stalin going through school and 20 million would be a very very conservative number. He did have a lot more years on Hitler though, because he was there from the beginning, so that’s why you will find the numbers will never be solid….the Revolution itself put a lot of blood on Stalin’s hands…and after Lenin’s stroke, he had a free pass as essentially being the #2 or 3 (depending on how you look at it)…
Except that 20 million is being generous. From what beginning? Stalin wasn’t a leader until after the Revolution.
See, this is what I’m talking about: you can be vague and imprecise to defend a faulty argument. Or just be completely wrong.
Specificity is what we are looking for here.
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I have been continuing this primarily to play devil’s advocate in trying to bring out more of the discussion.
Personally, I cannot distinguish between who was worse. Who killed more, and how they did so, does not equate to a greater evil necessarily. I find Hitler much more personally repugnant, but I find Stalin much more personally dangerous. I put forth the Stalin argument because you seemed to believe a case could not be made for him being worse.
And as for a knee-jerk reaction to communism… not so. Again, more emphasis placed on it just to do so. Communism… National Socialism… I hate them both for what they mean to humanity.
To be honest, I do not care to post anymore here. The point was that you realize that Stalin can legitimately be called worse than Hitler. Whether or not you can accept that is something else. But maybe you have just been ignoring that for the sake of our ancillary argument.
Either way, good discussion.
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