Shoot, my sentence was in the wrong order. I edited it to mean what I wanted to say.
Grasshopper's 8d System - Conversion tables for 1940 Global units
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On a side note, would you consider a 6 sided die just for the AAA?
I would like to have everything that used a 6 in oob to use an 8 in this system, but I suppose a 6 would still be required for the (broken and obsolete) R&D phase.
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This Tech R&D might as well be improved by your enthusiasm, YG.
:-DIMO, AAA is an half-baked unit.
At first, it was 6 IPCs then reduced to 5 IPCs to use this slot but this did not change things to make it popular.The old AAguns were also rarely built because their was enough in set-up too.
But, this Flak 88 was a cool sculpt and was still an improvement to get each specific AAA sculpt for main powers.
Since it seems like the other units, you are more compelled to consider it same as other ground units.
But it is not the case. If AAA had remain grey or white and non-specific, no one would be bother to never purchase them. -
@Young:
On a side note, would you consider a 6 sided die just for the AAA?
I would like to have everything that used a 6 in oob to use an 8 in this system, but I suppose a 6 would still be required for the (broken and obsolete) R&D phase.
Ok. Today I read that HBG uses a D12 but still uses a D6 when rolling SBR damage. I like your D8 HR idea and would gladly play it. Was just wondering if this could have been an area to still use a D6.
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You can slightly modify SBR:
StB bombing damage to be 1D8.
Average: 1+8=9/2= 4.5 IPCs
(1D6+2= 8 damage max, anyway average 3+8=11/2= 5.5 IPCs )TcB bombing damage to be 1D8 minus 2, minimum 1 dmg point.
Average: 1+1+1+2+3+4+5+6= 23/8= 2.875 IPCs
OOB TcB dmg avg: 3.5 IPCsIf IC’s AAA is @1 on D8 (12.5%), it is also reduced odds compared to OOB 16.7%.
So, it is fair to reduced average Strat bombing damage.Convoy Raid: 1D8 roll: 1-4= 1-4 IPCs ; 5-8= 0 IPCs
50% odds of making damage.
Average dmg: 1+2+3+4+0+0+0+0= 10/8= 1.25 IPCOOB Convoy 50% odds of making damage.
Average D6 dmg 1+2+3+0+0+0= 6/6 =1 IPC -
Ha ha you go Baron :-D
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Just a bit of free time before returning to work.
:-D -
I do like it. Trying to get everything using d8 .
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I’ll have to look at using d12 for SBRs instead of d6 in all my games. AAA is already D2 for d12.
Just roll 1 D12 for damage instead of 2 d6s but got to check icp % damage -
Converting damage into D12, is harder indeed…
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INTERESTING THREAD.
This how I see it. Why limit yourself to one kind of dice. Why don’t you use 8D, 10D, and 12D for different units. It will give you a lot more options. I have to make a study on this, and make multiple VANN TABLES on this.
I should also buy something (I know what to buy) to program my own personal battlecalc. It can do any side dice. Two and on up. No limits on the sides.
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Voting is done… AA Guns will stay 1/8 Def.
Thanks for participating.
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@Young:
This is what I found so far as an alternative to the diamond shape that rolls like a football.
Perfect for the hit symbol I want to use.
At a Fantasy game store, it is much easier to find package of 10 sides dice.
Some FRPG only use D10 or D%.
You will have to find a special dealer for D8 sides pack only. -
NEW POLL QUESTION POSTED!
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@Baron:
@Young:
Baron,
With the differences between my 8D units and VANNs 8D units… which do you like best? Please don’t give me a bunch of analytics and than play neutral, give me a straight opinion. Thanks.
Hi YG,
here is what I would prefer:
Here is the value based on 12 IPCs Cruiser put at 5.00 as the benchmark for YG numbers.
Formula is 144*power/Cost^2.
*2.618034 for 2 hits Battleship or CarrierInfantry A1-2 D2 M1 C3: 16.00 / 32.00 12.5% / 25%
Mech Inf A1-2 D2 M2 C4: 9.00 / 18.00 12.5% / 25%
Artillery A3 D3 M1 C4 : 27.00 / 27.00 37.5%
Tank A4 D4 M2 C6 : 16.00 / 16.00 50%Baron Arty+ Inf: Attack: 29.39 Defense: 29.39 5/8 = 62.5% for 7 IPCs, OOB: 4/6= 66.7%
YG Arty+Inf combos: Attack: 29.39 Defense: 23.51
Vann Arty+Inf combos: Attack/Defense: 23.51Baron Arty+MechInf combos: Attack: 22.5 Defense: 22.50 5/8 = 62.5% for 8 IPCs, OOB: 4/6= 66.7%
YG Arty+MechInf combos: Attack: 22.5 Defense: 18.00
Vann Arty+MechInf combos: Attack/Defense: 18.00To help players assess intuitively their odds of success and to not distort too much a given offensive or defensive stack.
Infantry A1 D2 and MI A1 D2 are already weaker (on defense: 25% odds of success compared to 33%).
And Tank will be less weaker than OOB against both combos of Artys. 50% vs 62.5% instead of 66.7%Artillery A3 D3 and Tank A4 D4 are comparatively increasing their odds.
Artillery is absolutely rising from 33.3% to 37.5% and Tank, keeping 50%, is now twice better against Infantry (50% vs 25%).Also, Artillery A3 D3 conveys the idea that guns have more impact than small arms from Infantry or MI A1 D2.
And people are used to Artillery unit having same attack and defense factor.
So, purchasing Artillery will not too much compromise defensive capacity compared to OOB, as a cost 4 Def 2 unit would do.“The issue is about D8s Artillery A3 D3 C4 being too strong compared to D8s Tank A4 D4 C6.” Uh, they’re not too strong. A 4 attack is larger than a 3 attack. There, it’s simplified.
No, this will not create an anti-tank bias. I personally value the 2 movement points and the 50% hit chance still sounds pretty good to me when trying to charge all the way to Bryansk. Your math didn’t take into consideration the dynamics of 2 movement points. Got it, the cost ratios won’t always be perfect for every unit as larger quantities are involved. Artillery (slow movers) still could only be purchased on G1 (maybe G2) and not really until the Russian factories are secured. Didn’t we all debate the 12 IPC cost cruiser to death or whether bombers are too effective. I will still buy tanks in large quantities. But like my previous post suggested, I like how artillery now have a little bump and are now more important. Field Artillery is not called King of Battle for no reason. During WW2, artillery was probably one of the largest contributing factor for the US Army beating the crap out the German Army.
@Young:
I’m all for more artillery purchases, and to lower it’s attack value from 3/8 to 2/8 would make an artillery unit that never gets purchased in oob as is, weaker in comparison using 8 die on all fronts.
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I voted for A3 but If u plan on a poll for D value for art a D3 I think is to high.
D6
A2 - 33.4 %
D2 - 33.4 %D8
A3 - 37 %
A2 - 25 %U gain 3.6 % on Attack
But lose 8.4 % on defense but if u add Attack and defense together it�s only 4.8 % drop.
Besides Art boost +1 on some pieces and it can move 2 when towed.12 art A3/36 D2/24 C48
8 tank A4/32 D4/32 C4812 art A3/36 D3/36 C48
8 tank A4/32 D4/32 C48Pretty strong piece for 4 icps if Defending at 3.
I’ll play Russia now with Bright Skies :-D
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Besides Art boost +1 on some pieces and it can move 2 when towed.
I don’t know if YG use this Houserule…
When I suggested Artillery A3 D3 M1 C4, I was precisely thinking about Russia.
This power rely upon a lot of Infantry stack.
For example, 40 Infantry Def 2/8 stack is pretty weaker on defense:
.254040 = 400 metapower points
compared to OOB D2/6:
.334040 = 528 metapower points30 Artillery units A3 D3/8:
.3753030 = 337.5 metapower pointscompared to OOB:
.333030 = 297 metapower points30 Artillery units A2 D2/8:
.253030 = 225 metapower pointsIt still showed that on defense, it is cost effective to buy Infantry only.
But it becomes a real drop in metapower when having a mixed stack:compared to OOB D2/6:
.334040 = 528 metapower points
.333030 = 297 metapower points
OOB Sum: 825 metapower points40 Infantry Def 2/8 on defense:
.254040 = 400 metapower points
30 Artillery units A3 D3/8:
.3753030 = 337.5 metapower points
Sum: 737.5 metapower points compared to 825 = 89%40 Infantry Def 2/8 on defense:
.254040 = 400 metapower points
30 Artillery units A2 D2/8:
.253030 = 225 metapower points
Sum: 625 metapower points compared to 825 = 76%Even with such A3 D3 Artillery, russian stack will be much weaker than OOB.
And this will be worse if using A2 D2 Artillery.
Tank and Fg and TcB are not loosing attacking strength (same 50%).
But, Fg is weaker on defense but also TcB in combined arms config.Providing a more optimal Artillery will improve the possibility for USSR to built a mixed army and having more options for tactical counter attacks. Instead of just buying Infantry over and over and keeping defensive stance only.
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I see your point if it doesn’t boost inf +1.
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@SS:
I see your point if it doesn’t boost inf +1.
Sorry, but it needs this bonus both for MI and Inf, too.
I would rather drop Artillery to A2 D2 to not compromise game mechanics and tactics.We are talking about an Artillery unit on D8 which will be better by this small % odds margin compared to OOB:
37.5 - 33.3 = 4.2 * 2 (both off def) = + 8.4 % this is half pip on D6
+1 on D8 is 12.5 - 16.7 = -4.2 %
So, Artillery A3 D3 is overall only 4.2% (a quarter of a D6 pip) better than OOB Artillery.It is stronger than Tank. As it should because Tank trades firepower for mobility. But M2 is a strong advantage and Tank brings +1A to TcB.
Also, in actual D8 config, Tank are on offense as strong as Inf and better than MI on same IPCs basis. So, it does not become obsolete, to the contrary. On offense, Tank get same attack strength than Inf.
Here is the comparative with Enigma formula (still using a 12 IPCs unit reference).
144*Odds/cost^2 = strength of unit on same odds by hit per IPCs basis.Inf A1-2 : 144*.125%/9 = 2.00 / 3.67 (1:1 with Art A3) 2.94 (1:1 with Art A2)
Defense: 4.00
Inf OOB : 144* .167%/9 = 2.67 / 3.91 (1:1 with OOB Art)
Defense : 5.33MI A1-2 : 144*.125%/16 = 1.125 / 2.81 (1:1 with Art A3) 2.25 (1:1 with Art A2)
Defense : 2.50
MI OOB : 144* .167%/16 = 1.50 / 3.00 (1:1 with OOB Art)
Defense : 3.00Art A3 D3: 144*.375%/16 = 3.375
Art A2 D2: 144*.25%/16 = 2.25
Art OOB: 144*.33%/16 = 3.00Tank A4 D4 : 144*.50%/36 = 2.00
Same OOB8 Inf A1-2/8-16 D2/16 C24, overall drop –4.2*2 = 8.4+8.3%= 16.7% or 1 D6 pip
6 MI A1-2/6-12 D2/12 C24, same drop
6 Art A3/18 D3/18 C24, rise of 4.2%
4 Tank A4/16 D4/16 C24, no change. But gives 4.2% less to TacB. -
Still think Art is to strong with +1 for mech and Inf and D@3.
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It is strong but when you purchase it, it will not weaken too much the defense capacity of your already weaker defense army. A3 D2 will make this.
And Art will be more popular without stealing Tank position.
It will make for more dynamic games, relying on offensive tactics and counter-attack.
Otherwise, it will incente for very defensive stall against Tank dominancy.
Artillery will becomes a non-factor for Moscow. Even with A3 D2, Russia cannot afford such luxury because of the loss in defensive power compared to Infantry.IMO, this is between a more AA50-like dynamics with C5 Tank for Germany because Tank are less affordable for Moscow, USSR turning back upon Inf.
Or a more dynamic German’s Tanks + MI (using Art as back up) vs USSR’s Artillery+ Inf strategy.
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