Tankograd

[Der Kuenstler]

Hey guys,

Am I the only one who thinks Russia is a weakling in this game? Considering Germany broke its back on Russia, I don’t think it gets fair representation.

What would your ideas be on recreating Tankograd? Here’s some internet info on it:

Chelyabinsk Kirov factory:During World War Two the plant had 60,000 employees.
From 1941 on the plant produced 18,000 tanks, 48,500 armoured vehicles and 17,7 million pieces of ammunition. Among these number are 13 new types of tanks and self propelled guns and six different types of tank diesel engines. They were also the first to place the construction of a heavy tank on a assembly line. During and after the second World War the factory received 33 awards like the order of Lenin, order of Kutuzov 1st class, and the order of the Red Star.

My initial ideas would be:
1. starting in 1942 give Russia a major factory Southeast of Moscow (like Samara)
2. allow that factory to produce whatever, plus one FREE tank and possibly one FREE mech every turn for the duration of the war. The free units wouldn’t count against the factory limit.

What are your thoughts on it?

[CWO Marc]

@Der:

What would your ideas be on recreating Tankograd? […] 2. allow that factory to produce whatever, plus one FREE tank and possibly one FREE mech every turn for the duration of the war. The free units wouldn’t count against the factory limit. What are your thoughts on it?

My thoughts are that a Tankograd would be fun, but that it should only produce tanks because that’s what the “Tankograd” concept implies.  It should not be an all-purpose industrial complex, because that would amount to trying to have it both ways.  Factories and their assembly lines are specialized in the real world because building complex machines requires specific machine tools, specific materials and a trained workforce.  And remember that although Russia did achieve miracles by moving some of its factories east of the Urals, it still suffered an initial huge drop in production (I think it was as high as a 90% drop) compared to its pre-war industrial capacity.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Der:

Hey guys,

Am I the only one who thinks Russia is a weakling in this game? Considering Germany broke its back on Russia, I don’t think it gets fair representation.

What would your ideas be on recreating Tankograd? Here’s some internet info on it:

My initial ideas would be:
1. starting in 1942 give Russia a major factory Southeast of Moscow (like Samara)
2. allow that factory to produce whatever, plus one FREE tank and possibly one FREE mech every turn for the duration of the war. The free units wouldn’t count against the factory limit.

What are your thoughts on it?

Considering what Marc said.
I believe two free units (10 IPCs worth) is enough to bring the tankograd theme in game while increasing USSR production that way.

[Der Kuenstler]

OK thanks for the smart input, guys - looks like I’ll have to think on this one a while….if anybody else has an idea on it let me know!

[GeneralHandGrenade]

I looked it up and it was indeed located in Samara on the Global40 map. If you wanted to give the Russians a boost without overdoing it you could give Russia a free minor industrial complex in Samara only upon entering the war against Germany (regardless of which side declares war). That factory would only be able to produce tanks or mechanized infantry at a cost of 1 IPC below normal cost. This would allow them to produce more than just infantry but still force them to have to move them further to the front lines. A minor IPC would only allow 3 units per turn of course which would not upset the balance of power too much in the eastern front. The factory would have to be free though or else it would make no sense for Russia to spend 12 IPC’s that would take them 4 turns to recoup with the lower unit cost. Germany would be able to bend them over by that point. In the event that the axis conquers Samara the factory should be destroyed for the rest of the game. That might draw some attention away from India for the Japanese as they now have a viable choice since steaming towards Moscow from the Pacific coast is too much of a stretch for their supply lines against a fortified capital.

[Imperious Leader]

Thats a great rule!

[WILD BILL]

Instead of placing another IC on the board, why not just allow the Stalingrad IC to build mech/tanks 1 IPCs cheaper once Russia is at war (it even starts with 1 tank and 1 mech). Then allow that IC to move to Samara when the axis are closing in. Basically give the Stalingrad minor IC mobile industry, and it can move to Samara if Ukraine or Leningrad fall.

[GeneralHandGrenade]

I really like Der Kuenstler’s idea of creating Tankograd and improving Russia’s chances of defending themselves against a German invasion, but I don’t think it would improve the game if the scales were tipped too far. In order for the axis to have a chance of winning the game they have to be able to conquer Russia. The point of Tankograd is to add an element of history into the game which would also have the benefit of giving Russia at least a fighting chance of fending them off. Removing the complex in Stalingrad would be a penalty to Germany because that is one less complex that they can take to pile tanks of their own on in the pursuit of Russia, the Middle East, and India.

That’s not a bad idea though, Wild Bill. My original thought was to use the Stalingrad complex for this purpose until I searched where it was actually located. I liked the idea of Samara better though because it puts it out of reach of the Germans until they take out Moscow and it entices the Japanese to maybe take a shot at it. Just one more small element to the game to make it a little more interesting.

[baron Münchhausen]

Why not just put in Samara 1 Mech and 1 Tank, or even 2 Tanks, each turn when Russia is at war wich Germany?
This bonus is void if Samara is conquered.
No need to add IC since the rate of production is only 2 units, specifically.

You can even link it to a kind of lend-lease NO:
Persia need to be neutral or in Allies hand to get this units bonus, for example.

[Der Kuenstler]

Great feedback - I think the first priority should be historical, so far as it can fit into the parameters of the game.

Look at the description above - Tankograd was HUGE. And they made not only vehicles, but ammunition. I see no problem with placing a major factory there. Give it a production of 12 with the extra 2 being the free mech and tank. You would have to do 12 damage to stop production by bombing.

[Imperious Leader]

I think anything more than -1 mech and tanks will imbalance the game. Then you need to give Germany -1 tanks ( for the first tank produced only)

[WILD BILL]

Yea, lets not get carried away here. I think it would be ok for a 1 IPC reduction for tanks and mech built there with the production of a minor (3 units). That way the bonus is 3 IPC max per turn “if” they decide to build there. I don’t think you should be able to build 10+ units at a reduced cost, or get any units for free.

I also think you need to show the need for moving your production center away from the eastern front too (Germans advancing). Some kind of event to trigger this bonus such as the Russians loosing one of their 3 forward minor ICs. I don’t think there would be a need for such a bonus if say the Germans went Sea Lion.

Also something to think about is the NAP between the Russians and the Japanese. How high was the threat of the Japanese getting to this facility through Siberia or China in the real war. In this game the Japanese come a calling quite often, and if that was the case in the war would the Russians have picked a different region to set up their tank plants. Maybe allow for an alternate location?