The surprise strike that never was….


  • In the current official rules, (specifically from AA Pacific 1940 SE) sea battles involving submarines are described. If no destroyer is present, attacking and defending subs get a “surprise strike” - any sea unit they sink cannot fire back. However, 2-hit ships can fire back if they are hit once.

    Does this seem right to you? 2-hit ships get no special penalty at all from a surprise strike. I think if a battleship gets hit once by a sub surprise strike, it should not get to fire back in that round, representing the shock inflicted by the totally unexpected torpedo blast. The next battle round it can then fire back. (unless hit again and sunk by another surprise strike.)

    What do you people think?

  • Customizer

    Got to disagree with you on this one. For one thing, the battleship IS getting a penalty by taking the first hit. If you are playing one of the 1940 games, then the battleship now has to get to a friendly naval base to get repaired, which is at least inconvenient. If you are playing one of the other A&A games, then of course the battleship will “auto-repair” if it survives this battle, but during the battle it is still one hit away from being sunk instead of two.

    Like the “Surprise Strike” is a special ability of the submarine, being able to take 2 hits is the special ability of the battleship. If you say that a battleship can not fire back after taking it’s first hit from a surprise strike, then you are negating the battleship’s special ability in order to improve the submarine’s special ability.


  • @knp7765:

    If you are playing one of the other A&A games, then of course the battleship will “auto-repair” if it survives this battle, but during the battle it is still one hit away from being sunk instead of two. Like the “Surprise Strike” is a special ability of the submarine, being able to take 2 hits is the special ability of the battleship. If you say that a battleship can not fire back after taking it’s first hit from a surprise strike, then you are negating the battleship’s special ability in order to improve the submarine’s special ability.

    The penalty you explained for the battleship is the same penalty it would have gotten from any other unit. Any other ship or plane could have given it one hit, then it would get to fire back. Its true that in some versions the BB would be damaged, but it would be damaged if any other unit hit it, too.

    As it is in a 1:1 battle with a battleship, the sub fires first. There is a 1/3 chance it will hit the BB. But then the BB just takes it as a free hit and fires back at 4 - a 2/3 chance of killing the sub, even though no DD is present. If the sub manages to survive this, it has another 1/3 chance to sink the BB.

    So the sub has a 1/3 chance of hitting once, a 1/3 chance of surviving the BB counterattack, and then a 1/3 chance of hitting again to sink the BB. That makes the odds 1/27 that the sub will sink the BB. Not exactly  a “surprise strike” advantage for a sub that caught a fat BB in its sights without any DD escort!

    @knp7765:

    being able to take 2 hits is the special ability of the battleship

    I am not proposing to stop the BB from taking 2 hits. It will still take 2 hits. I am proposing that it not be able to fire back after the first hit from a surprise submarine strike. That is supposed to be the submarine’s rightful advantage due to no enemy DDs being present.


  • If you want to give a Sub the first strike bonus against a Battleship, reduce the Battleships attack and defense roll.

    Reduce to D3 A3 because its damaged. It D3 first round of combat.

    If Battleship takes a hit from something else ( no first strike ) then Battleship is reduced to D3 A3 after first round combat but gets the D4 on first round of combat.

    I think a Battleship should get only a D3 A3 after anytime it takes a hit for any round.

    But if the Battleship takes a hit from sub first shot give the Sub a bonus and make the Battleship D2 for first round of combat and then gets to go back to D3 A3 for rest of combat rounds if your playing with reducing A D values for damaged Battleships.

    If Battleships don’t get reduced values when damaged, then  make it Sub first shot gets to reduce Battleship to D2 on first round combat only.


  • If all things were equal, I could see your point Der Kuenstler, but not all things are equal.  An Iowa class BB would not “normally” be sunk by a single torpedo.  The BB’s were built to take a punch as well as deliver them.  Submarines are not built to stand in a toe-to-toe battle with a BB.  It’s not a fair fight.  I could see throwing a single submarine at a lone BB if the intent is to wound it making it more likley to seek a naval base to be repaired than to advance in an operation.  I can’t see expecting the single sub to sink the BB in a stand alone fight.  Wolf-pak them.  You would definately have a chance with three or four against one.


  • @Dafyd:

    Submarines are not built to stand in a toe-to-toe battle with a BB.Â

    The inequality of firepower is resolved by the stealth ability of the sub. Sure, the BB could blow the sub out of the water - IF IT COULD FIND IT.

    Since in this case there is no friendly destroyer in the area which can track the location of the sub and hence the source of the torpedo, the hit battleship still has no clear idea where the sub is. On top of this, there is now a gaping hole in the side of the BB, a fire is raging, smoke is obscuring visibility, and alarms are sounding. How would this large crippled BB, which cannot make tight turns, and which may already be listing to one side, have the ability or the time to find a submerged sub out there under the waves somewhere and return fire before being hit a second time?

    I have no sympathy for the owner of the BB - he didn’t plan properly by keeping a DD escort with him. Blub…blub…blub…a new reef is made for the fish.


  • @SS:

    If you want to give a Sub the first strike bonus against a Battleship, reduce the Battleships attack and defense roll.

    Possibly, although this adds more complication.

    For the sub to score two hits in a row on the battleship without it ever firing back, the odds would be 1/9. It’s still not that great of a chance - I mean, we bomb ICs all the time with a 1/6 chance of getting shot down.

  • '17 '16

    As such a Battleship has no antisub weapon. No hedgehog.
    If it is allowed a defense @4 for a game unit,  this imply some sort of escorting ships to do the job against subs.
    Otherwise you have to HR something.


  • Notwithstanding the A&A rules (which I agree are a very imperfect simulation of reality), Dafyd makes a good point about WWII battleships being designed (as a popular wristwatch commercial once put it) to take a licking and keep on ticking.  In particular, they often had liquid-loaded bulkheads along their waterlines that were specifically designed to absorb and dissipate torpedo and mine blasts.  To give a couple of examples of how tough battleships could be: Yamato took 10 torpedo hits and 7 bomb hits before sinking, and Musashi took an even more impressive 19 torpedo hits and 17 bomb hits before sinking.

    All that damage did, of course, gradually degrade the fighting effectiveness of these ships as the attacks progressed, but the initial few torpedo strikes would hardly have been enough to cripple them in a general sense – and they would not have crippled their anti-submarine warfare capabilities because, as Baron correctly notes, WWII battleships had no such ASW capabilities.

    Battleships relied on their escorts for ASW protection.  Battleships had no sonar, no conventional depth charges, no Hedgehog, no Squid, and did not have the small tactical radius needed to outmaneuver a sub.  Their main guns generally could not depress further than about minus five degrees, so a close-range shot by them against a surfaced U-boat would have been out of the question.  A longer-range main gun shot against a surfaced sub would technically have been possible (assuming a sub were stupid enough to stay on the surface), but a sub is an awfully small target to hit with tube artillery at a range of twenty or thirty kilometers.  The best shot (no pun intended) that a WWII battleship would have had at sinking a nearby surfaced sub (again assuming it were stupid enough to stay on the surface, particularly that close to an enemy fleet) would have been with its secondary guns (generally 5-inch or so): big enough to do serious damage, but easier to aim and having a more rapid rate of fire than the main guns.  But I’m not aware of any such gunfire sinkings ever happening.  The only known case of a battleship sinking a sub happened back in WWI, when HMS Dreadnought rammed an immobilized U-boat floating on the surface.

  • Customizer

    @Der:

    I have no sympathy for the owner of the BB - he didn’t plan properly by keeping a DD escort with him. Blub…blub…blub…a new reef is made for the fish.

    I have no sympathy for the submarine owner that sends a single sub after a battleship. If you really want to sink that enemy battleship, do like Dafyd said, send a wolf pack.

    Also, like CWO Marc and Baron M pointed out, in a large strategic level game like this, our game units are not just a single unit. A battleship piece in the game is not just a single battleship. They are more like a naval group centered around one or more battleship(s). This would include escorts with ASW capabilities, radar pickets, fueling vessels, etc.
    It’s just like the carriers. Our carrier pieces carry 2 planes but an actual carrier usually carried something like 80-100 planes.
    So that is why battleships and carriers can fight back against submarines in this game.


  • @knp7765:

    A battleship piece in the game is not just a single battleship. They are more like a naval group centered around one or more battleship(s). This would include escorts with ASW capabilities…

    I see this argument a lot - but nobody seems to want to follow the logical progression in it. If you are going to say a battleship piece is not just a single battleship, then it follows that a submarine piece is not a single submarine. Therefore a single submarine would actually already be a wolf pack, with this thinking!

    You could take this rationale and say that really ANY ship doesn’t represent just that ship. How about a cruiser, for example? Isn’t a cruiser surrounded by this invisible support, too? You just said a battleship is. Then why is a cruiser sunk by a surprise strike without a chance to fire back? Where is this invisible ring of support ships around a cruiser?

    I recall using this very same argument in favor of transports defending at “1” in one of my other threads - I listed several types of WWII escort ships that are not represented by current Axis and Allies pieces, like escort carriers. I said that transports could be thought of as not lone transports, but surrounded by support. I recall many baulked at the idea.

    The fact is, the OOB rule is inconsistent here. Every vessel hit by a surprise strike cannot fire back. But a battleship can?

    Dafyd said a battleship could normally not be sunk by a single torpedo. I agree. With my idea it will still take 2 torpedoes to sink a battleship. The BB just won’t get to fire back if hit the first time. If the sub misses with it’s second shot, then the BB will get to fire back. As I said, there is only a 1/9 chance that a lone sub will hit a lone BB twice in a row.

  • '17 '16 '15

    I tend to agree with Dafyd Der Kuenstler but to support your POV I believe Prien sunk a BB in scapa flow all by himself. Granted the situation was a little different as in the British didn’t think they were under sub attack, but he did sink it.


  • Thanks for all of your responses and thoughts in this thread!

    I went back and checked the PDF rules since 1999. It became clear to me from reading them that any CASUALTIES of an attack by a sub Surprise Strike cannot fire back, not HITS. A CASUALTY is defined as something “lost.” This appears to have been a consistent rule all along.

    Since the battleship (or in some editions carrier) is not “lost” (sunk) by the first strike of a single sub, it can fire back. If the battleship gets a second hit by a Surprise Strike, then it would be “lost” and would not get to fire back.

    I can live with that.

    In other words……

    I’m going to back on out of here now…. Merry Christmas everybody! :)

  • '17 '16

    @Baron:

    As such a Battleship has no antisub weapon. No hedgehog.
    If it is allowed a defense @4 for a game unit,  this imply some sort of escorting ships to do the job against subs.
    Otherwise you have to HR something.

    In World War II The expansion,
    When Subs only are firing, Battleship and Cruiser cannot retaliate in the opening round.
    They must wait after the second rnd of Subs’ surprise strike to roll to hit them.
    So, Subs have two shots to sink them before being under defense rolls of any surviving BB and Cruiser.
    Merry Christmas to you and all!

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