@Stough just remember when playing tripleA that ‘1 more turn’ is never 1 more turn…
Japan is too strong?
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In this game, it isn’t only about the weaker player being on the defence, but also the weaker side (even if played by a stronger player).
If the axis play a strong game without tactical errors, the allies have no place they can get a grip on. They can attack but will be driven off again and the axis will come out of it only stronger than before and gain the upper hand economically in the mean time. OR: the allies do get a grip on a certain map, but then the axis win on the other map…What A&AG40 needs (as a whole, so it’s not just Japan), is the re-introduction of that fear factor for the axis. They should fear the passing of time again. They should really feel the pressure to win before turn 10 (I just picked an arbitrary number here) or else loose the game for certain.
As it is now, if playing as the axis, I personally do not fear the passing of time at all. I use it to crush the allied economy where they are not opposing the axis, always getting on top around turn 12 or so…Three basic allied strategies:
1. USA puts more focus in Europe -> Germany has a hard time crushing/isolating Russia, Japan can grow into a monster.
2. USA puts more focus in Pacific -> Japan struggles, but now Germany becomes the monster and can crush Moscow and/or the Middle East.
3. USA divides their focus evenly -> The allies will not get any grip anywhere.In those three situations, this is what the axis can make happen economically (IPCs per turn):
1. Japan gets >100. Germany and Italy ~70. Total axis 160-170, Total allies 140-150.
2. Germany + Italy will get to ~125 together, Japan struggles to keep 60. Total axis 175-185, Total allies ~160.
3. Never mind. Axis will get even closer to 200.I know the economical situation is not the only thing that counts, but with the economical game, the allies do not have the military to drive the axis off somewhere to rebalance the economical situation. In such a situation, the side that is on top economically, will win if played out till the bitter end.
So in global, the allies have a focus-issue they don’t have when playing A&A Europe40 or A&A Pacific40. In both other games they have less to spend, but their income is less easily overthrown.Therefore I daresay that the real issue with Global, is the income of the USA. In global their income is almost halved compared to what they have in each of the standalone games. I can see why that is because if the USA can spend in global what they have in A&AEurope + A&APacific combined, they can focus all that on 1 map and the axis can never win (much like the real war). One possible solution to that is to also split the USA economies AND their armies as well (built in the Pacific has to stay in the pacific). Same for Europe. To correct for such arbitrary rules, the USA should eventually be allowed to move parts of their navy and/or airforce from one map to the other but I haven’t yet figured out how…
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Nice post ShadowHAwk, and I agree 100%. You have to be semi aggressive and kill Japanese ground units in Asia every chance you get early. Trading money islands with Japan as the game goes on is a must. Force them to trade transports taking money islands and destroyers trading blockers, as you counter with a sub and air when their destroyers are exposed. Allies flooding the pac with subs can be helpful mid game. Yea they can kill a few of you subs if you spread them out, but it leaves their destroyers exposed weakening the main fleet, plus you may get a chance to convoy. Japan doesn’t want to buy ships, they want to buy ground units. Force them to do things they don’t want to.
Lets look at a typical J1 attack. your BB will have hit the cruiser ( asume that that happened ) What prevents the UK pac from taking FIC with their transport. So now japan cannot hit yuhan ……
This statement is so funny to me personally because as Japan when I hit that BB w/cruiser and 2 bmrs it seems like about half the time the BB gets to roll twice and I have lost the cruiser and a bmr a couple times. You know what I’m talking about, you have that one battle that has gone wrong a couple times and makes you cringe lol. I normally put the Formosa ftr in that battle just to make sure.
Anyway yea great point about taking back FIC if the cruiser isn’t blocking you. It would PO Japan because they almost always build an IC there J2 (delay).
To ItIsILeClerc, you bring up a great point. Before as the allies you would defend Moscow (and other key places) weather the storm and go offensive. Now the time factor thing has changed, and the axis can actually make it their advantage. The allies still need to defend/delay and play a pretty flawless game in order to have a slim chance of winning. Its seems like the axis need to make a mistake, or get horrible dice to give the allies the upper hand.
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Huh, have to say after playing this game 200+ times against some of the best players, that Japan is the weaker of the 2 main Axis powers. Economically Japan can at best get to 70-80. That is against (if you go KJF) 70 from US, 15+ from Anzac, say 10 average from UK Pac, plus China and maybe 18 Russian infantry. No way they can hold out against that.
If Japan goes J1 then the US goes right for the jugular, i.e. sz6 and Korea backed by the USSR. J1 usually doesn’t work out for Japan. It can’t take out India, get the money islands, and defend the homeland all at once.
Indeed, the purpose of the 20ish bid is to shore up Allied control of the middle east so that by the time Moscow falls, Japan has been collapsed and the allies can rush to secure Cairo/London before the Axis can turn around to them.
Some of the best allied players lean on Germany hard at the start and allow Japan to expand with the knowledge that even if Japan gets India and the Money Islands, capturing Sydney or Hawaii against concerted defense is no simple task. Indeed, if the allies play it right they can contain Germany and then reroute to stop Japan cold from getting the 6th VC.
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Well said Karl7.
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Okay thanks all!
The Allies need some outside help then. I think I might remove more Japanese aircraft, and/or give the US more money.
In my experience the 18 Russsian troops of the east withdraw to postpone the German attack on Moscow and China (as I said) is ALWAYS destoyed in R4. I cannot imagine how you cannot destroy China in R4 (only hard-pressed Russia can really prevent that)…
Mech Inf to China from India: I don’t see that happening but I will try my next game. Our allied subs are always spread out to irritate the Japanese and the allies try to take the treasure islands, but (at least when I am playing Japan) Japan always gets them back! The main thing is: the allied combined main fleet is smaller then the Japanese fleet, so the allies have to keep their distance.
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Tolstoj, how long have you been playing and roughly how many games do you have under your belt? At the risk of sounding condescending (not trying to be) I feel like your sentiment is common among players who are relatively new to the game, as at first glance Japan looks unbeatable.
With some good teamwork from the Allies, Japan can be pestered to the point of slowing them down and making it fairly difficult to get that 6th VC. I’m actually a big fan of using the Siberian troops to pester Japan (turn 1 Buryatia, turn 2 Amur, turn 3 take Manchuria or Korea, or as Karl suggested let America take Korea then reinforce). I do not agree that using those men to harass Japan spells instant victory for Germany
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I think we played about ten games now. And I have perhaps learned more here then playing the game. ;)
Still I think Japan is too strong, but I will change my allies-strategy the next game and what happens. With the 18 Russian units Moscow is usually safe one or two turns. The units from India are no use in my experience, but again I have to try this…
I am curious where you put the Japanese navy in J1 and J2! I usually DOW US/UK in J3, but when you DOW in J1 or J2… ???
My China attack goes as follows:
J1 you take four Chinese territories: Chahar with 2 inf., Ahnwe with 3 art.+1 Mech+6 Inf, Hunan with 2 inf+1 art (1 inf dead) and Yunnan with 1 inf+1 art (2 inf dead). You place 3/4 inf on Jehol behind this invasion force, and you land 1 armor in Kiangsi. You buy a MIC on Kiangsu.
China can only converge on Shensi to stay alive, and usually takes Yunnan back (if possible): 12 inf+fighter…
J2 Japan takes Yunnan (2 inf), Kweichow (4 art+6 inf+mech+armor), Hopei (1 inf) and Suiyuan (1 inf and 3/4 behind). You buy 3 mech inf on Kiangsu.
China usually goes to Kansu with 16 inf and fighter…
J3 Japan takes Shensi and puts 3 mech inf on Hopei.
How is China going to escape from this?
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Better off putting that factory in Shangtung as opposed to Shanghai. You can get south just as quickly but you are able to reach Manchuria in a turn in case you need to deal with Russians/Americans there :wink:
What China can do is take Yunan back turn 1 and turn 2, thus forcing Japan to keep taking it back, and keep enough troops in Szchewan at the end of turn 2 that Japan has to commit a considerable amount of troops to Yunan if they plan on keeping it from there on out (which they can do if need be). However, if the Siberian troops march into Korea or Manchuria then Japan cannot just say “Screw the north.”
That’s why I believe the key to stopping Japan is to try and make them and do everything, which they cannot. They cannot wipe out China, AND keep the Siberian troops at bay, AND take India, AND fight back the American navy, AND hang onto the money islands, AND hold a 6th VC, etc. Now, the allies have to play a great game to make these things happen, but it CAN be done is the point.
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Japan doesn’t have to do everything to win the game. They just need to destroy China and UK Pac while maintaining deterrent against the US/ANZAC combined fleet… and they can. Then once Germany and Italy inevitably destroy Russia, the Axis have the economic advantage and can impose their will by marching the units that were used against Russia down to Africa, where there will be insufficient resistance to stop them. Russia can’t do anything more on that front than the Chinese can, and by the time the US masses enough ships to be a real threat Japan can match them in builds while maintaining a positional advantage.
Best I can tell, this map is simply a broken game. I would love to learn differently but I am searching and searching and can find no examples of a good Axis player getting beaten.
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Better off putting that factory in Shangtung as opposed to Shanghai. You can get south just as quickly but you are able to reach Manchuria in a turn in case you need to deal with Russians/Americans there :wink:
What China can do is take Yunan back turn 1 and turn 2, thus forcing Japan to keep taking it back, and keep enough troops in Szchewan at the end of turn 2 that Japan has to commit a considerable amount of troops to Yunan if they plan on keeping it from there on out (which they can do if need be). However, if the Siberian troops march into Korea or Manchuria then Japan cannot just say “Screw the north.”
That’s why I believe the key to stopping Japan is to try and make them and do everything, which they cannot. They cannot wipe out China, AND keep the Siberian troops at bay, AND take India, AND fight back the American navy, AND hang onto the money islands, AND hold a 6th VC, etc. Now, the allies have to play a great game to make these things happen, but it CAN be done is the point.
China can’t stack Szechwan to retake Yunnan on C1 because Japan will just attack the stack with its 20 planes and kill it, so the Chinese troops have to cede Yunnan after only 1 turn.
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Better off putting that factory in Shangtung as opposed to Shanghai. You can get south just as quickly but you are able to reach Manchuria in a turn in case you need to deal with Russians/Americans there :wink:
What China can do is take Yunan back turn 1 and turn 2, thus forcing Japan to keep taking it back, and keep enough troops in Szchewan at the end of turn 2 that Japan has to commit a considerable amount of troops to Yunan if they plan on keeping it from there on out (which they can do if need be). However, if the Siberian troops march into Korea or Manchuria then Japan cannot just say “Screw the north.”
That’s why I believe the key to stopping Japan is to try and make them and do everything, which they cannot. They cannot wipe out China, AND keep the Siberian troops at bay, AND take India, AND fight back the American navy, AND hang onto the money islands, AND hold a 6th VC, etc. Now, the allies have to play a great game to make these things happen, but it CAN be done is the point.
China can’t stack Szechwan to retake Yunnan on C1 because Japan will just attack the stack with its 20 planes and kill it, so the Chinese troops have to cede Yunnan after only 1 turn.
Thank you! So Japan can kill of all Chinese units when wanted in R4?
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China can’t stack Szechwan to retake Yunnan on C1 because Japan will just attack the stack with its 20 planes and kill it, so the Chinese troops have to cede Yunnan after only 1 turn.
Want to make sure I’m understanding you:
You’re saying that Japan would stack, say Kwangsi, with all its planes and attack the Chinese units in Szechwan on J2? As the China player, I’d gladly welcome that. Figure Szechwan should have 10 inf and a fighter, meaning 4 hits. If you want to sacrifice four planes to take out some Chinese infantry be my guest.
Not only that, one could easily add some beef to Szechwan on R2 (they could get 2 mechs and 2 tanks there), which now means Japan is looking at a loss of 6 planes on the first round of combat, and 2 more on the next round (Japan’s 20 planes you mentioned should account for 12 hits, leaving two tanks and a fighter). So now Japan is giving up 8 planes to take out Chinese ground units and 4 Russian units? Again, I’d gladly welcome that and I’d wager to guess that, under those conditions, you wouldn’t even launch that attack to begin with, leaving China free to retake Yunan on C2.
But let’s say you still do that attack and lose the 8 planes, fine. What about the 18 Russia troops in Amur that I’m about to move into Korea or Manchuria on turn 3? Let’s say I choose Manchuria: how are you taking that back on J3? It’s possible, but you’d have to commit a ton of resources, including committing transports and just about all your remaining airforce, meaning 6 AA shots for Russia before the battle even begins. After that battle Japan would be down most of its Asian ground force and around 10 planes. If you don’t attack, or the attack fails, now China can spend its money (admittedly not much) on units in Manchuria and start collecting a little each turn, while Russia looms as a major annoyance.
This sort of discussion is why I never buy the idea that the Axis are unstoppable. Are these moves game winners on their own? Probably not. But if the Allies work as a team they can come up with plenty of ways to disrupt the Axis powers.
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You can also wait a turn and bring the Japanese infantry in reach (I never use fighters, but it is a good option when you can wipe the complete Chinese army out in one stroke).
How are you going to defend China in R4? With Russian troops? Not when Germany goes for Barbarossa…
Please tell me if I have overlooked something, but I ALWAYS completely wipe China out in R4. Maybe my opponents are doing something wrong…
My China attack goes as follows:
**J1 you take four Chinese territories: Chahar with 2 inf., Ahnwe with 3 art.+1 Mech+6 Inf, Hunan with 2 inf+1 art (1 inf dead) and Yunnan with 1 inf+1 art (2 inf dead). You place 3/4 inf on Jehol behind this invasion force, and you land 1 armor in Kiangsi. You buy a MIC on Kiangsu.
China can only converge on Shensi to stay alive, and usually takes Yunnan back (if possible): 12 inf+fighter…
J2 Japan takes Yunnan (2 inf), Kweichow (4 art+6 inf+mech+armor), Hopei (1 inf) and Suiyuan (1 inf and 3/4 behind). You buy 3 mech inf on Kiangsu.
China usually goes to Kansu with 16 inf and fighter…
J3 Japan takes Shensi and puts 3 mech inf on Hopei.**
How is China going to escape from this?
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Japan takes ALL the money islands in turn 4. China is beaten with the initial units from set-up plus only 3 Mech Inf. Japan doesn’t have to buy much (factory and 3 Mech = 24 IPC) to take China.
The rest of the IPC’s can be spend on fleet. No way allies have that many ships as Japan in round 4. So when China is down you can concentrate on ANZAC and US…
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It does not have to, japan can kill any 1 country easy at the expense of not attacking others. IF you want to take out china for a few rounds sure UK-Pac will be making 24 a turn, anzac 14 and they will have a good time building up. By the time you get to the money islands they will have a garison on them so it takes you 2 transports each and a big mixed fleet to destroy any transport that does not have half your starting fleet with them.
My thoughts exactly. Said with a smile: the reply from an Axis player cannot always just be “Well then I’d just do A, B and C” without any regard to the fact that the Allied players ALSO get to purchase units, move, etc.
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When I attack in J3 I have 7 transportships. When I attack in J2 I have 5, so yes I take ALL the islands very easily! Certainly by R4 (I usually have them all by R3)!
J1 (26 IPC): 2 transport 1 Minor IC
J2 (40 IPC): 3 Mech Inf, 2 sub, 2 destr => DOW!!!
J3 (48 IPC): 3 Mech Inf, 1 Minor IC, carrier, destroyerWith the US I buy 3 carriers the first round: these are the only units that can help the initial fleet in R4 in SZ 54/Carolines…
Very curious how you all do it!
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In J2 Japan has 12-13 landunits in Kweichow. So I won’t be battling for Yunnan after J3. In J4 China is gone and I put my fleet near Java, so India has to protect itself and can’t move units to China (or lose India itself)…
With how many transport will you threaten Japan? Japan has 21 planes so it won’t even have to buy anything to protect it. But it can buy a few infantry if necessary, or wait a turn to take China…
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With the planes you are right: you have to make choices…
With the landunits in China you are not. Those are all from the startup line! In J3 Japan has 7 transports to take islands (or Japans has 5 when it attacks in J2). These transports don’t have to be fully loaded, because most islands will be empty. There are already 6 inf, 2 art, 1 armor on Japan, and 5 infantry on the other islands. That is more then enough!
I can always take Yunnan back with mech-infantry I buy at French Indo China…
If your fleet is not in SZ 54 Japan needs only to move its transports to Java etc. The rest of the fleet will be at the Philipines. So if you move to Korea it wil be sunk completely…
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Those planes cannot be on carriers and fight in china and be on japan at the same turn.
Those 13 land units are needed on your transports to take islands remember. So you wont have that much in china.
You keep telling you can counter anything because you got a lot of units but those units cannot be used everywhere at the same time. The whole point of the allies isnt to attack you where you are strongest but to attack you where you are weakest. If the russian 18 inf deside to take machuria while your fleet is off java and the US fleet parks itself off japan and takes korea india can pretty much go turtle up for 1 round the next round your fleet wont be off java anymore and china will have units in the north for a change.India in this scenario can still build mechs and invade into china with the help of their airforce and at the same time defend india. And if your fleet is off Java what is there to prevent me from moving the US fleet next to japan and take korea? No your fleet cannot do it and your 21 planes will be only 12 by this time as there will be 6 on your carriers and chances are you lost 3 somewhere.
Thank you Shadow for expressing my exact sentiments when this discussion pops up. All of the arguments I’ve made for the Allies not being completely outclassed in this game come back to one fundamental principle: the Axis cannot do everything at once. As the Allies, your job is not easy, but it’s simple: make the Axis do too much. Japan has a deadly airforce, but it can’t be in five or six places at the same time.
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The Axis (specifically Japan) might not be able to do everything at once, but they are able to do at least 1, usually multiple things very well. If multiple Allied powers put stacks in range of the Japanese air force on the account that Japan can’t hit them all, Japan will just hit the most valuable/troublesome one (usually US navy if you advance to Carolines too early), come out positive and then swing around to the other stacks after a couple turn delay, leaving the Allies crippled in some place for minor gains elsewhere.
It’s also the reason its worth it to airblast the Chinese Rd2 in Szechwan if they stack there; yeah you lose 4 planes, but now you don’t even have to worry about the Chinese giving you one of these “split-decisions” later.
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