Heavy Taranto UK1 right move?

[WILD BILL]

Nice pick-up Herr KaLeun, about no scramblers on W Germany (big German boo-boo). You got to roll the dice on that one (Bmr vz cruiser). Taking Norway or Denmark (landing spot) as a back-up plan for the French fighter to do second run on the transports is awesome, but the Italians could fly a fighter to W Germany to scramble (if they see it).

Could also buy a carrier for the UK with intentions of mobilizing it in sz 110. This would allow for 1-2 more air units to hit sz113 w/bmr, and land on the new carrier. I might go with just the bmr, and 1 fighter though, because if he hits w/cruiser you could take the hit on the fighter, then you’re not obligated to drop the carrier in sz110 (could drop it in sz109, off Canada or S Africa). I think if you kill the transports the Sea lion threat would be over, but he could still drop more transports G2, so inf and/or ftr for UK may still be needed (but his attack is getting weaker).

If you mobilize the carrier in sz110 (w/2 ftrs), and NCM other ships to sz110 the Germans may feel they have to fight you (you would also have scramblers from UK). If you have also moved the Med navy to sz92 (like I describe above)  or placed it w/French in sz93 (like Herr KaLeun suggested), then they will have to deal with both UK navies, or maybe you get the chance to merge them into one large Royal Navy if the Germans take a pass on it.

Anyway you have set them back by killing his cruiser and transports (sz113), and either inflicted enough damage to the Luftwaffe (if he hits you), or you have a sizable navy that the Germans can’t deal with (or the Italians if you go Med). There is a growing contingent that says if you are more patient with the Italian navy, they will give you the opportunity to destroy them away from their air base (they have to come out and play sometime LOL)

[leontini]

thx for all the replies guys
in the end i choose for a taranto heavy move, this brought the center of the europe fighting in the med, we are now in turn 3, the germans still not declared war on russia so i begin to say to my russian allies to prepare to be a little more aggressive, cause germany is spending a lot in the med and his kriegsmarine is inside (and they are really lucky with dices until now)

the situation now is chenaged cause we are really fighting for cairo (and the italians are now the faction that has to play)

Germans (possess southern France, Greece and marocco)

sz 93: 1 Carrier, 1 DD, 2 FIG
sz 92: 1 BS, 1 CC, 1 DD, 3 TRANS (with 3 INF, 1 ART inside)
Southern Italy: 2 FIG, 2 TAC, 1 Bomber

Italians (possess Gibraltar)

sz 92: 1 CC, 1 DD, 1 TRANS
sz 95: 1 TRANS
Southern Italy: 2 Inf 1 FIG
Northern Italy: 3 INF, 1 ART
Tobruk: Starting Line up

UK

Cairo: 6 INF, 1 ART, 4 TANK, 3 FIG, 2 TAC
sz 98: 1 DD
sz 81; 2 TRANS, 2 DD, 1 BS, 1 CC

in cairo there’s a Factory and an airbase

Alexandria: 1 Inf
Trans - Jordan 1 Inf

[ghr2]

Seems like India might be in a bit of trouble if you really pulled the indian airforce off.

[WILD BILL]

So Germany faked Sea lion, and went full tilt Med. Hmm, sounds like you have done a great job in distracting him from either of his top priorities (taking Moscow, or taking London). When the US comes over the Germans won’t have the Med either lol

[ItIsILeClerc]

You may want to be careful of an Axis economic victory.
I don’t know the US’ status in your game, but I had major problems in 2 recent games because the USA could only start fighting US4.

If this is the case in your game, there are numerous dangers for the allies with this axis one. I speak from unpleasant exerience ;-). Since I don’t know your exact situation, I’ll just sum a few:

• Loosing Gibraltar which is turned into an unconquerable axis fortress.
  Unconquerable as in too much investments from the USA required to take it back=> Axis win a 6VC victory in the Pacific. Personally, I don’t see any allied offensive operations in Europe with an axis fortress Gibraltar (strong navy, 4-6 transports, strong airforce, lots of troops). Over time, due to the lack of a ‘second front’,  Germany can focus its IPCs east, potentially still birdcage Russia without conquering Moscow=> economic victory.

• Loosing Egypt and subsequently all of the ME with it. Be aware of Germans who advance all the way onto Moscow and then turn south.

• Egypt changing hands every turn, with Germany securing Caucasus + Stalingrad.
  Should only be a problem if the USA doesn’t spend enough IPCs in Europe to gain some permanent footholds there. UK defending ME and fighting both ME and Western Europe alone is too much for it. Maybe an alternative is if the USA can get some valuable Islands in the Pacific, but I don’t have much experience with that: requires a pure KJF.

Regardless what you do, you must force Germany to send (almost) all of its initial Luftwaffe into Russia. If they cannot Birdcage Russia they cannot win.
Key for this is building (just) enough fast units early on so the Red Army can defend at Belarus if Germany has no TAC + FTR around. Belarus and later on Bryansk. Possibly with some RAF help. The UK should have some ready @ Persia to send over to Bryansk, after the Germans bounced off Belarus and turned south. With that AB in Egypt, the RAF can also fly from Egypt to Bryansk (one of the reasons why I build an AB in Egypt if I do).
Second very important thing: a second front must be opened in West Europe. If Germany can focus all of its income Southeast, they have an easy game. Preferably you bomb German factories every turn as well…

[KaLeu]

@WILD:

So Germany faked Sea lion, and went full tilt Med. Hmm, sounds like you have done a great job in distracting him from either of his top priorities (taking Moscow, or taking London). When the US comes over the Germans won’t have the Med either lol

Exactly!

What’s the situation on the eastern front? I see a lot of German money flowing towards the Kriegsmarine here: a CV, 2 DD, 2 TR. Plus that airbase in Holland/Belgium. If Russia bought land units only, which they normally would, then I don’t see Germany doing well in the east.

The situation reminds me of one of my rare over-the-board games, when I played Russia, and Germany focused on fighting the UK a bit, ruling the Med, trying to help Italy take Egypt…. all very wonderful, but I DOW’d him R4 and stomped into Scandinavia with my Novgorod stack. Russia normally can’t afford to do that, because those units are needed to defend Moscow, but Germany had just failed to build the land units to take Moscow anyway. Finland and Norway in Russian hands meant +11 for Russia (income + NO) and -10 for Germany (income + NO). He still marched into Novgorod, but with Russian income well above 50, the Red army ruled.
And of course at that very moment, the US was eying Gibraltar. The Axis didn’t last long.

[leontini]

@ herr Kaleun

the global european situation is now this one (Round 4 Germany and Russia already played)

Germany

Poland: 2 Inf, 1 Mech
Eastern Poland: 19 Inf, 5 Mech, 5 Art, 9 Tank, 2 AAA, 2 Italian Tank
Romania: 3 Inf
Finland: 8 Inf, 1 Art
his chain of supplies is limited at
Germany: 2 Tank, 1 Mech

in the med/middle east

Greece: 6 Inf, 1 Tank, 2 Fig, 2 Tac, 1 Bomber, 1 Italian Fig, Airbase
Sirya: 4 Inf, 2 Art, 2 Tank, 1 Tac
Algeria: 1 Inf
Southern France: 1 Inf, 1 Tank
SZ 99: 4 Trans, 1 Carrier with 2 FIG, 1 DD, 1 CC, 1 BS
SZ 98: 1 DD
SZ 93: 1 Trans

Italy

Alexandria: 2 Inf, 1 Mech, 1 Art, 1 Tank
Syria: 2 Inf, 2 Art
Southern Italy: 2 Inf
Northern Italy: 3 Inf, 2 Art

SZ 95: 2 DD, 1 Trans
SZ 99: 2 Trans, 1 CC

UK

Egypt: 4 Inf, 1 Art, 4 Tanks, 2 Fig, 2 Tac, 1 AAA, Airbase, Factory plus 2 Anzac inf, 1 French inf, 1 French FIG

SZ 81; 1 BS, 2 DD, 1 CC, 2 Trans

RUSSIA

Baltic States,Belarus,Bessarabia, Vyborg,Karelia: 1 Inf
Western Ukraine: 4 Inf
Ukraine: 17 Inf, 3 Art
Bryansk: 12 Inf, 2 Art, 3 Mech, 4 Tanks, 1 AAA
Novgorod: 11 Inf, 2 Art, 2 Tank, 1 FIG, 1 TAC
Rostov, Volgograd: 3 Inf

i think they are now even faking cairo to get middle east, i’m wondering if is time to make some counterattack, maybe in alexandria from Egypt
My real problem in england is that he got 2 subs really close so i can’t buy transport if i don’t rebuild a navy, cause quite all the west european cost is empty and i would like to start moving that huge amount of Inf i got in england

[ItIsILeClerc]

@Herr:

(…)
The situation reminds me of one of my rare over-the-board games, when I played Russia, and Germany focused on fighting the UK a bit, ruling the Med, trying to help Italy take Egypt… all very wonderful, but I DOW’d him R4 and stomped into Scandinavia with my Novgorod stack. Russia normally can’t afford to do that, because those units are needed to defend Moscow, but Germany had just failed to build the land units to take Moscow anyway. Finland and Norway in Russian hands meant +11 for Russia (income + NO) and -10 for Germany (income + NO). He still marched into Novgorod, but with Russian income well above 50, the Red army ruled.
And of course at that very moment, the US was eying Gibraltar. The Axis didn’t last long.

It looks your opponent really sent a lot of IPCs into the med. As much as he would throw against London during a True Sea Lion.
By comparison, that would roughly be 30 + 98 (two turns worth of buying ships) + 115 (TUV of forces sent to London that won’t return to fight against Russia) = 243 IPCs sent elsewhere.

But maybe we should forget about mathematical IPC-comparisons :P.
From a strategical point of view, I think Russia is in the position of attacking Scandinavia if they can defend @ Belarus (or even at East Poland!) after sending in units into Scandinavia.
Maybe there is still a margin for Russia to attack Scandinavia even if they can’t hold @ Belarus, but I often wondered where the breaking point lies.

@leontini,
you really should include information about the USA.
There is no way the UK can get a TRS-fleet in the Atlantic ready in time without the help from the USA to protect it. You need to cooperate very closely with Roosevelt!
It usually takes 2-3 CV + 4-6 FTR + 2 DD + 3FTR (scramblers) at minimum to protect your transports from a combined strike of the Luftwaffe and the kriegsmarine (subs also kriegsmarine) and this is something the UK cannot produce on its own, not even if it’s not fighting for its life in Africa…
Well, they can (in Canada), but that will just take too long, roughly 4 turns, and will drain all IPCs into Canada. So no more spending anywhere else. 4 turns of producing means that you can start threatening Western Europe from turn 9 and that is way too late. You need the USA, so what is their status?

[leontini]

here we go with

USA

Eastern United States: 3 Inf, 3 Mech, 1 Tank, 2 Art, 2 FIG, 1 Bomber
SZ 101: 1 BS, 1 Carrier, 1 CC, 2 DD, 4 Trans

Western United States: 2 Inf, 1 Mech, 1 Art
SZ 10: 2 BS, 4 CC, 2 Carier, 3 DD, 1 Sub, 3 Trans, 3 FIG, 1 Tac

[ItIsILeClerc]

I’m not sure if you are actually looking for help to proceed beyond this point so I’ll remain silent about that for now ;-).
Shouldn’t be too much of a problem in this situation to cooperate with the USA and build a combined fleet in the Atlantic.

[leontini]

in truth i need some help cause i’m really afraid about middle east, and i don’t know if is better now to keep continuing building stuff in egypt and south africa or do some other thing

in my mind the idea was to enter the med with the fleet so i can make a counterattack in alexandria starting to wipe the italians from north africa, or if i still need to keep buyng land stuff in egypt and use the fleet to bring 4 lamd pieces plus the Inf i got in persia to prevent axis to keep even the iraq Inf and points

[ghr2]

The US Pac fleet should go to hawaii or Queens asap.

[KaLeu]

@ItIsILeClerc:

@Herr:

(…)
The situation reminds me of one of my rare over-the-board games, when I played Russia, and Germany focused on fighting the UK a bit, ruling the Med, trying to help Italy take Egypt… all very wonderful, but I DOW’d him R4 and stomped into Scandinavia with my Novgorod stack. Russia normally can’t afford to do that, because those units are needed to defend Moscow, but Germany had just failed to build the land units to take Moscow anyway. Finland and Norway in Russian hands meant +11 for Russia (income + NO) and -10 for Germany (income + NO). He still marched into Novgorod, but with Russian income well above 50, the Red army ruled.
And of course at that very moment, the US was eying Gibraltar. The Axis didn’t last long.

It looks your opponent really sent a lot of IPCs into the med. As much as he would throw against London during a True Sea Lion.
By comparison, that would roughly be 30 + 98 (two turns worth of buying ships) + 115 (TUV of forces sent to London that won’t return to fight against Russia) = 243 IPCs sent elsewhere.

But maybe we should forget about mathematical IPC-comparisons :P.
From a strategical point of view, I think Russia is in the position of attacking Scandinavia if they can defend @ Belarus (or even at East Poland!) after sending in units into Scandinavia.
Maybe there is still a margin for Russia to attack Scandinavia even if they can’t hold @ Belarus, but I often wondered where the breaking point lies.

He didn’t quite make it that bad - he did spent money building German land units, but just not enough to worry Russia. I basically gave up on Belarus and Novgorod, but my Moscow stack was quite big, and I was doing very well in the south too. He wasn’t strong enough to take Moscow anyway, especially with Russian production well above 50. He could have taken Scandinavia back from Novgorod, but that would have slowed him down even more. But I don’t remember the details, it’s been a while.
I’m not sure that you can generally say that as Russia, you need to make a stand at a specific location (other than Moscow of course) to be able to afford capturing Scandinavia. With Norway and Finland in Russian hands, Germany will have a hard time outproducing Russia anyway.

@leontini:
If Germany moves his big stack into Belorussia next round, that implies that your Novgorod troops are too late to reach Moscow anyway. So in that case, I’d say, go for Scandinavia. Alternatively, if Germany goes into Western Ukraine (why leave 4 inf there?), you’re still strong enough to block him by pulling everything together in Bryansk, including anything that’s in Russia (was nothing produced there last round?). As for the Novgorod units - they can either go south towards Belarus and Bryansk, or attack Scandinavia even in that case. I’m not sure which option is better, but both seem alright for Russia to me.

As for Egypt, even if you build there and troops from South Africa arrive at the same time, that’s probably just enough to keep either Germany or Italy away, but not both. In other words: Italy could sacrifice its land units to soften Egypt up for Germany to take it. I don’t think you can stop that by just sitting in Egypt, so you need to do something… strafing Alexandria would help, but only if it works out really well and deters Italy from making an attack at all.

When it comes to the US, I totally agree with what LeClerc and ghr2 said.

[ItIsILeClerc]

I must admit I am having trouble with this axis strategy myself lately. Haven’t found the ‘correct’ allied answer yet.
For the first time in my ‘allied career’ I have a puzzle that I could’t solve within a couple of days, and I am still looking for an answer to this axis ‘slow delay strategy’.
Then again, my opponent (the one that uses this strategy) is very strong with the axis and I don’t know the level of your opponent ofc, but if he makes no mistakes…

The way I am thinking about it now, may already be too late for you but I 'll share it anyway:

• Russia must force Germany somehow to use its Luftwaffe in the east by blocking off the path into Caucasus/Stalingrad, OR by doing what Herr Kaleun suggested. Just don’t overdo an attack on Scandinavia because the German Luftwaffe always has the flexibility to just abandon the west/south and fly east, taking Moscow hard. Recent calculations suggest Russia should not send >20 units away into (for example) Scandinavia and that is with a mild RAF assistance in Moscow (4 units).

• The USA must get ~14 (!) fully loaded TRS into Western Europe US5, accompanied by 3 UK TRS. UK should slowly increase its TRS to 5-10 units once the fleet is at the channel to increase pressure on Berlin itself and start flooding 8-10 units into Europe per turn. 10 units should always threaten Berlin, slowly increasing to 25 (USA takes Denmark + Norway, UK kills Berlin is the threat).

• UK must abandon Egypt and build an IC in Persia to compensate. 3 to 6 units should be placed in SA + Persia. Maybe not every turn, but as often as possible/needed. Alternatively, Egypt is held, but this may require a bid.

• A Russian alternative might be to retake the North + Scandinavia AFTER Germany dived into Caucasus/Stalingrad while moving away from Moscow.

I know these things will greatly help the allies fighting this strategy, but I am still working out if this doesn’t leave the USA with too few IPCs for the Pacific, as the Atlantic fleet also needs proper protection.
Obviously, the allies lose the game if they lose ~24 TRS and their escorts, even if this takes down all the German + Italian air.
Fortunately, the USA has a little room for loosing Hawaii, because in this axis strategy (delaying both the USA and Russia into the war untill round4), Calcutta should have 30-40 units and will not fall before J10. And the more IPCs Japan spends on Hawaii/Sydney, the longer Calcutta will remain free.

But as said, I am still puzzling on this axis strategy myself ;-)!

[KaLeu]

Thanks, LeClerc, for your insightful comments on this type of Axis strategy. I’ll certainly consider it if it’s ever played against me in a better way than my opponent did.

[ItIsILeClerc]

YW Herr, always looking to share (and hopefully recieve) valuable experience :-).
Especially with the allies, since many players  seem to have a lot of problems playing allies. Including me recently, since I only stumbled upon this axis stratagem roughly 2 weeks ago.

I’ve come a bit further with this puzzle today.
It seems that spending ~190IPCs in Europe with the USA is OK with this J3/4DOW.
With that, the USA should be able to put together a ‘taskforce Europe’. I just tried it with 7TRS and that was just barely NOT enough to get a beachhead in Western Europe, but enough to take Norway (with UK help) and after that, Leningrad and all of Scandinavia + Northern Russia.

Being a bit creative with the US’ starting forces and production limits, USA can (possibly, if you want) max the number of its transports in Europe at 14 in US4 (also using the Pacific TRS).
It does mean however, that the USA follows a purely defensive strategy in the Pacific for the first 10 turns or so, if Japan is focusing on Hawaii ‘Cow-style’ but less turns if not.

[leontini]

so, since it seems valuable at least to talk about allies gameplay i continue giving the report of this match i try to give you all the position so tou can have a global perspective, for the issues we were debating i went for a counteroffensive with the uk in alexandria in turn 4, and in turn 5 i pushed uk troops even further

TURN 5 (ITALIANS STILL TO BE PLAYED)

Germany

France: 3 Inf, 2 Art
Western Germany: 1 Art, 1 Fig, 1 Bomber, 2 AAA
Germany: 4 Tank, 4 Mech, 2 AAA
Romania: 3 Inf
Eastern Poland (possesed by italians): 18 Inf, 7 Mech, 5 Art, 11 Tank, 2 AAA
Syria: 7 Inf, 2 Tank
Iraq: 4 Inf, 2 Art
Northwest Persia: 1 Tank
Persia: 1 Tank
Finland: 8 Inf, 2 Art
Greece: 2 Fig, 3 Tac

SZ99: 5 Trans, 1 Carrier, 2 Fig, 1 Bs, 1 Cc, 1 Dd

Russia

Vyborg, Karelya: 1 Inf
Baltic Staes: 4 Inf
Novgorod: 9 Inf,2 Art, 2 Tank, 2 AAA, 2 Fig, 1 Tac
Belarus, Smolensk: 1 Inf
Western Ukraine: 4 Inf
Bessarabia: 1 Inf
Ukraine: 18 Inf, 2 Art
Rostov: 3 Inf, 2 AAA
Volgograd: 2 Inf, 1 Art
Caucasus: 3 Inf
Russia, Samara, Novosibirsk: 1 Inf
Tinguska: 3 Inf
Yakut s.s.r.: 1 Inf
Central Mongolia: 2 Inf
Suyuyan: 2 Inf

Japan

Tsinghai: 2 Inf, 2 Art
Szechwan: 4 Inf, 1 Mech
Yunnan, Hunan, Shan State: 1 Inf
Kwangsi:1 Mech, 3 Fig, 3 Tac
Kwangtung: 3 inf
Anhwe: 3 Mech
Jehol: 2 Inf
Manchuria: 1 Inf
Buryatia: 1 Inf, 1 Mech
Japan: 1 Inf, 1 Art, 1 Fig, 1 Tac, 1 Bomber, 2 AAA
Philippines: 1 Fig, 1 Tac
Celeb: 1 Inf, 1 Art
Borneo, Java, Dutch New Guinea: 1 Art
Caroline Island: 3 Inf, 2 AAA

SZ6: 1 Bs, 3 Carrier, 1 CC, 6 Sub, 4 DD, 3 Fig, 2 Tac
SZ35: 1 Bs, 1 Sub, 1 DD, 1 CC
SZ 42, 43, 45: 1 Trans
SZ44: 1 Trans, 1 Sub

America

Alaska: 2 Inf
British Columbia: 1 Fig
Western United States: 1 Fig, 2 AAA
Eastern United States: 4 Inf, 1 AAA
Brasil: 2 Inf, 2 Art
Gibraltar: 2 Inf, 1 Mech, 1 AAA
United Kingdom: 3 Inf, 2 Mech, 1 Tank

SZ4: 3 Bs, 2 Carrier, 5 CC, 1 Sub, 1 DD, 2 Fig, 2Tac, 2 Trans (2 Inf, 1 Mech, 1 Art)
SZ 5,7,16: 1 DD
SZ1: 1 Trans
SZ10: 3 Sub, 2 DD, 1 Carrier
SZ101, 86: 2 Trans
SZ 91: 1DD, 1 Carrier, 2 Trans, 2 Fig
SZ109: 1 Bs, 1 DD, 1 CC, 3 Trans

CHINA

Kansu: 1 Inf
Sikang: 7 Inf
Kweichow: 1 Inf

BRITISH

Uk: 14 Inf, 1 Art, 1 Mech, 5 AAA, 1 Fig
Lybia: 1 Tank
Malta: 1 Bomber, 1 AAA
Southern Italy: 1 Art
Egypt: 8 Inf, 5 Tank, 2 Fig, 2 Tac, 1 AAA
South Africa: 2 Inf

SZ95: 1 CC. 1 Trans
SZ98: 1 BS, 4 DD, 1 CC
SZ81, 71: 1 Trans

UK PACIFIC

West India: 3 Inf,
India: 8 Inf, 1 Fig, 1 Art
Burma: 12 Inf, 3 Art, 3 AAA

SZ41: 1 DD

ANZAC

Sumatra: 1 Inf
Queensland: 6 Inf, 1 Art, 2 Fig, 2 AAA

SZ62: 2 Trans, 1 CC, 1 DD, 1 Carrier

ECONOMY

Germany: 53
Russia: 39
Japan: 60
America: 73
China: 7
UK: 57 (thx to rome conquest)
UK PACIFIC: 6
Italy: 0
ANZAC: 21

To understand why i pushed in burma you have to consider that ANZAC will now wipe away the Japanese Transports in south pacific
i think that our problem in europe is now the germans going to Volgograd

[KaLeu]

Sorry - I got quite busy and forgot about this. I suppose that by now the game has continued to a point beyond the situation we were discussing. So what happened?