If there had been (as far back as the mid-1930s) a supreme Japanese leader who truly controlled both the Army and the Navy, Japan might have either avoided getting into a war in the first place, or might have conducted it more effectively (for example, by leaving both China and the United States alone and concentrating exclusively on the British and the Dutch). As it was, power in Japan was divided four ways between the Army, the Navy, the government, and the Emperor, all of whom had their own ideas about what Japan’s strategy and policies should be.
That’s exactly why I tought…
That’s the reason why Japanese did not declare the war to the Russian. After the battle of Khalin Gol, army lost credits in the goverment eyes.
The IJN high command took advantage of it and their plan of expansion was approved.
If the army and Japanese navy had worked together on the same objectives. Japan would have known more success in China and/ or even in India.
But Marc you forgot one thing.
If Japan had attacked only UK colonies and dutch, American would then have declared war to Japan even if Pearl harbor had not taken place.
But Marc you forgot one thing.
If Japan had attacked only UK colonies and dutch, American would then have declared war to Japan even if Pearl harbor had not taken place.
Maybe, maybe not. At the very least, U.S. entry into WWII would have been delayed by a few crucial months; it might even have been prevented altogether. The isolationist movement in the U.S. was very powerful prior to Pearl Harbor, so a Japanese invasion of, say, just the Dutch East Indies might have been met by a “too bad for the Dutch” non-reaction by the U.S. The Americans likewise didn’t much like British imperialism, so convincing the American public to go to war with Japan to defend British colonies like Singapore would have been a hard sell. The U.S. did have strategic interests in the Philippines, which would have been placed in an awkward position if Japan had captured the DEI, but the U.S. Navy’s RAINBOW plans at that time (which had replaced earlier plans like War Plan Orange) basically acknowledged that the Philippines were undefendable anyway and would not be a strategic priority if war were to break out in the Pacific.
If Japan had a central command who could set one long term strategy AND used public opinion of the US to their benefit rather than their disaster. Had the Japs used a less brutal public image of their war in China then the US would never have cut of the oil. Remember, at that point in time the US had the majority of the worlds oil production, was an oil export powerhouse…where did that US ever go? In any event, had the Japanese employed lobbyists and a PR campaign their oil would not have been cut off. They could have attacked the Dutch East Indies and played for time, they might NEVER have had to fight the US. The US didn’t declare war on Germany while it was pounding the piss out of London, so why would they attack Japan for attacking colonies of the Dutch or English?
If you doubt the US would sit buy idle and help a potential foe to arm and strengthen itself, look at todays example of China.
I would have scrapped the diversionary attack against the Aleutians (which only succeeded in bombing Dutch Harbor and capturing two useless islands) and I would have reassigned its ships (which included two light carriers) to the Midway attack force, thus giving the Japanese six carriers at Midway rather than four.
The diversionary attack in the Aleutions hurt the Midway attack, however an Aleution Islands invasion was a very wise move. With a few thousand troops Japan forced the U.S to commit 150,000 men to a harsh, worthless objective. Those U.S troops and material could have been used in North Africa and the Solomons.
Send all ground and air forces at the USSR.
Only a defeat of the Soviet Union, would give the germans the break they need, to save Japan, via an armistice.
Without the current invention of the A-Bomb, Japan could count on it’s populace to defend against American invaders.
Send all ground and air forces at the USSR.
Only a defeat of the Soviet Union, would give the germans the break they need, to save Japan, via an armistice.
Without the current invention of the A-Bomb, Japan could count on it’s populace to defend against American invaders.
Hey Gar, you must really be anti Japanese! You want to send them from the frying pan into the fire.
I’m surprised attacking the U.S.S.R is tied for first. That option is a good way to bring the war to a quick end, giving the Soviets full control of Asia.
All the options presented were weak, so I went with what I felt was the most prudent.
Face it, all the decent Russian equipment was “Busy” on the eastern front.
Might aswell try your luck, And capitilze on this gain - helping your ally, A deep Strike at Persia would have been the same. The rest of you are already saying the war was lost :P
Go for a gamble, the Americans are going to use the same, slow, methodical approach, wether you fight them or not. Bring your stuff back home, let them come to you, and hit em hard eddie, on your own turf later.
That or conscript Japanese women into their own military, $50 says they would have killed alot of reds and yanks.
Yea the Japanese should send all those troops on bicycles riding in Mountains and tundra in freezing cold to capture Christmas trees to send back to Hitler. Once they got inside of 3 miles of this pleasant terrain and completely run out of supplies, they can rest assured that the downfall of the Soviet is assured and opening this can of whoop a** was a magnificent idea as it completely refilled the Japanese Imperial Navies fuel tanks with all the OIL they didn’t get.
With any sence they should have attacked UK, USSR, and USA all on the same day, while taking another 10 years to polish off China which is more powerful than any force on earth.
Then they woke up…
I agree with gargantua.
Yea the Japanese should send all those troops on bicycles riding in Mountains and tundra in freezing cold to capture Christmas trees to send back to Hitler. Once they got inside of 3 miles of this pleasant terrain and completely run out of supplies, they can rest assured that the downfall of the Soviet is assured and opening this can of whoop a** was a magnificent idea as it completely refilled the Japanese Imperial Navies fuel tanks with all the OIL they didn’t get.
Yes there was nothing good to get from Siberia but IJN was more powerful than USSR pacific fleet so IJN would have sink the USSR fleet easily.
Cut the trans-siberian line, Landing in Vladivostok and force Staline to negociate. (somethnig like…let me see…oh yea… oil !!!).
You know like me that Staline didn’t want to fight on both front so…
With any sence they should have attacked UK, USSR, and USA all on the same day, while taking another 10 years to polish off China which is more powerful than any force on earth.
No one mentionned that Japs attack UK, USA,USSR and China on the same day.
Between those 3 power, USSR is the less powerful in Asia.
Attack USSR would have been a bright gamble. summer 1941 or after
Attack UK colonies in late 1941, or beginning 1942. (attack ceylon base not pearl harbor)
Attack USA was a suicide.
Then if you want to wage war, you take the most less bad option.
Marc and Crunch.
I agree with your argument. I know It’s all theory.
Personnaly I don’t believe that US government would have remained crossed arms while the Japanese would have conquered the South pacific as well as UK colonies.
If India and ceylon would have fallen under the control of Japan. The Japanese would then have threatened the south side of China and the middle east.
USA would have had no other choices that to declare the war and this before the beginning of the spring 1942.
Pearl to harbor was an error.
Midway was a disaster.
It was thus already too late for Japan to attack UK indian ocean fleet and knock down the fate.
Cut the trans-Siberian line, Landing in Vladivostok and force Stalin to negotiate.
Yea but cutting it at the 3 mile mark from the Pacific Ocean would make Zhukov laugh for about 20 seconds. Then the tactics of modern warfare would kick in and the Kwangtung Army would be cut off and routed again and Manchukuo lost.
Compared to the Soviets on Land, Japan was totally inferior.
Just look at 10 years they have dealing with backward China. If they faced a modern army with modern logistics and modern tactics they just crumble into “final battle for the emperor” or suicide tactics.
Same story all throughout the war.
I would continue with the original MIDWAY Operation.
You have to remember that you would not have any knowledge that the Americans were reading your mail… It was a brilliantly planned operation and almost succeeded despite this.
The United States Navy not only was reading Japanese Naval code before the battle, but was extremely LUCKY in finding the carriers before their own were discovered and destroyed by superior forces.
All Historians agree that the cards were stacked against the USA in this Battle, and it was a series of unfortunate events that lead to a Japanese Defeat.
I would continue with the original MIDWAY Operation.
You have to remember that you would not have any knowledge that the Americans were reading your mail… It was a brilliantly planned operation and almost succeeded despite this.
The United States Navy not only was reading Japanese Naval code before the battle, but was extremely LUCKY in finding the carriers before their own were discovered and destroyed by superior forces.
All Historians agree that the cards were stacked against the USA in this Battle, and it was a series of unfortunate events that lead to a Japanese Defeat.
And the sacrifice of a lot of U.S. Navy torpedo plane crews.
Yes there was nothing good to get from Siberia but IJN was more powerful than USSR pacific fleet so IJN would have sink the USSR fleet easily.
Cut the trans-siberian line, Landing in Vladivostok and force Staline to negociate. (somethnig like…let me see…oh yea… oil !!!).
You know like me that Staline didn’t want to fight on both front so…
Russia is by tradition a land power, so the destruction of its small Pacific naval forces would have been relatively unimportant and would not have forced it to negotiate anything. The Japanese would have had to defeat the Russians on land to get control of far eastern Russia – an area that was defended up until late 1941 by Siberian troops who were among Stalin’s best forces. The Japanese did poorly against them during the Soviet–Japanese Border Wars of 1938 and 1939. Even assuming, however, that the Japanese had defeated the Soviets in far eastern Russia, this would have made little difference because, frankly, it was land that Russia could afford to lose. Russia’s industrial and agricultural power base was west of the Ural Mountains, in the European part of the country, not east of Lake Baikal. In fact, one of the reasons (among many) which prompted Tsar Nicholas II to make peace during the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905 (during which Japan destroyed two Russian fleets and inflicted heavy losses on the Russian armies in eastern Russia) was that, as Wikipedia phrases it, “the relative unimportance of the disputed land to Russia made the war incredibly unpopular.” There were no significant oil resources (as far as I know) in far eastern Russia for Japan to have captured, and there was little that Japan could have done to force Stalin to ship them oil from the western part of the country. Oil was a vital Japanese need, and the Japanese Navy (which favoured campaigning south and east, not north and west as the Japanese Army preferred) understood full well that capturing far eastern Russia would do nothing to fulfill that need.
_Yea but cutting it at the 3 mile mark from the Pacific Ocean would make Zhukov laugh for about 20 seconds. Then the tactics of modern warfare would kick in and the Kwangtung Army would be cut off and routed again and Manchukuo lost.
Compared to the Soviets on Land, Japan was totally inferior._
Yea but kamarade Stalin has his eyes riveted on Europe, Finland and Baltic States.
In July and august 1939, He’s is in full negotiation with the British and Germans.
Furthermore, he receives reports of the Asia front.
The losses are terrible! 15 000 deaths and more. Zhukov wants reinforcements but the father of soviet people refuses.
Stalin received secret reports.
Hitler wants Poland! The attack is planned for the end of August, 1939.
We are next? Think Stalin.
Stalin looking for allies but negos with the brithish gives nothing.
It’s necessary to find a settelemnt with Japan and the Asia front.
We learn a lot of thing with Stalin secret document now available.
Before and throughout, Japanese were not opportunist whether during negotiation nor during the war.
The event of July and August 1939 and Midway in 1942 are good examples!
Furthermore, he receives reports of the Asia front.
The losses are terrible! 15 000 deaths and more. Zhukov wants reinforcements but the father of soviet people refuses.
Stalin received secret reports.
Hitler wants Poland! The attack is planned for the end of August, 1939.
We are next? Think Stalin.Stalin looking for allies but negos with the brithish gives nothing.
It’s necessary to find a settelemnt with Japan and the Asia front.We learn a lot of thing with Stalin secret document now available.
Before and throughout, Japanese were not opportunist whether during negotiation nor during the war.
The event of July and August 1939 and Midway in 1942 are good examples!
Then the Japanese soldier woke up and remembered this:
Its tempting to think a Japanese thrust in the East could have enabled an axis defeat of the Russians, and maybe this would have been possible as the margin of victory by the Russians was slim. Certainly the Germans in 1944-45 would have wondered what might have been.
However I have to agree with IL…suppose Stalin does nothing but delaying tactics and guerrilla warfare in the east while dealing with the Germans. He has a continent sized landmass (superimpose Europe and/or Australia on top of Russia sometime - modern day Russia is more than twice the size of Australia) of essentially useless territory he can easily cede to the Japanese without losing anything he needs, and he could recover this territory at his convenience after defeating the Germans. The valuable territory in Soviet Russia was the Ukraine, the industrial west, the Caucasus, and the Urals. Siberia and east had little value at the time despite the vast territory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Russia#Area_and_boundaries
(note Soviet Russia was larger than todays Russia, due to the independence of some former Soviet republics)
Not that the Japanese would have been capable of holding this vast territory and China at the same time. They couldn’t even hold China by itself despite a vast technology advantage (which they did not have against the Russians) and the Chinese civil war happening at the same time, as Chang Kai Shek had his capital at Chongquin for the duration of the war and Mao engaged in guerrilla warfare.
They spend 10 years fighting the Chinese which themselves are in civil war and can’t even deal them a defeat. China is still binding children’s/girls feet in that time and they are probably the most backward nation and their army is nothing but peasants equipped with supplied rifles and limited means. Attacking either UK, USA, or USSR on land is national suicide, as proven by every exploit sake Singapore and Philippines ( both of which were cut off and far from any relief force).
Only when Japan was dealing with very limited and quick campaigns can they succeed. They simply were not modernized to how warfare on land warfare developed since WW1.
Attacking Russia with the Kwangtung Army was silly and could gain them nothing in return but total failure.
I’m surprised that so many of you, if you were in the leadership of Japan in 1942, and were already at war with the U.K, U.S and China think it’s wise to invade Soviet Russia to help an ally that can not help you (except the handful of lost distance U-Boats to carry limited supplies)
That’s suicide military planning.
I think after Pearl Harbour it was too late for the Japanese to do anything to change the inevitable. When you piss of a country who can build in 1 month as many machine guns as you can during an entire 3.5 year war you are doomed.
The hope was to knock out the US early and hope they sue for peace. Yamamoto knew the US psyche and knew they were doomed after Pearl Harbour. It should not have been rocket science to know the US would fight back.
