@fantasticfan Allerdings! :grin: Since I could not (yet) find a PM function I started a chat with you (hope this works too).
Greetings from Schwabenländle
Technology
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That reminds me Bailen, 1808: crappy equipped Spanish army toasts overconfident french invaders. Or Midway in WW2! :lol:
Absolutely. Midway, Thermopylae (battle of the 300 Spartans), Alexander against the Persians, and I’m leaving out who knows how many others.
The point is, if you play LL (and no tech, for that matter), you’re destroying one of the greatest things about wargames. The simulation of unpredictability, and very surprising results. In real life, the side that is “supposed” to win, does NOT always win!!! Boo hoo! :cry: If WW2 was played with LL dice and no tech, the Japs and Germans would have won easily!
The reason for most of those victories has more to do with technology, tactics, intel, and other force multipliers. These things are not modeled in axis and allies. If the battle of Thermopylae would have taken place in an open plain, they would have been slaughtered.
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The point is, if you play LL (and no tech, for that matter), you’re destroying one of the greatest things about wargames. The simulation of unpredictability, and very surprising results.
Another problem I have with the variability of this incarnation of tech in AA50 is non-directed tech.
What scientist/researchers/whatever you want to call them would be working on trying to develop a heavy bomber and WHOOPS! We created super submarines instead!
Silliness.
Yea yea, simulation and what not… researchers are abstract concepts of people researching weapons, I know. But it really doesn’t make much sense to get a tech you didn’t really want.
IF the techs were more balanced, I could live with this indiscrimiate way to choose which tech you get once you get a break thru…but they are not, which makes them less than desirable to using in this game.
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The reason for most of those victories has more to do with technology, tactics, intel, and other force multipliers.
Everyone knows that.
These things are not modeled in axis and allies.
Yes, they are. That’s what the dice do.
If the battle of Thermopylae would have taken place in an open plain, they would have been slaughtered.
Of course, but it didn’t take place in an open plain, because the defenders knew the best place to defend their homeland. That’s why attacking infantry attack at 1 and defend at 2.
My whole point was that the “regular” dice simulate the unpredictability of battles (and technology, training, fatigue, commanders, luck, weather, you name it)
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IF the techs were more balanced, I could live with this indiscrimiate way to choose which tech you get once you get a break thru…but they are not, which makes them less than desirable to using in this game.
It’s quite easy to “balance” the techs, if you’re one of those guys that “balance” is the primary goal of everything. See my suggestions below. No one is stopping you from making your own house rules.
I just started a poll to see who plays with tech, who modifies, and who goes no tech, because I was curious.
I really don’t give a damn why you don’t like tech, or why you don’t like regular dice, or any of that.
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Tech, totally unchanged - 17
Tech modified in some way - 4
No tech - 8That is very interesting. I thought there would be a lot more voting for modified tech.
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Keep in mind as well, with the topic being ‘technology’ most players who dislike tech in some fashion would avoid the topic, I know I would have had I not been quite so bored.
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Keep in mind as well, with the topic being ‘technology’ most players who dislike tech in some fashion would avoid the topic, I know I would have had I not been quite so bored.
Ahhhh hahahahaha!
Do you have scientific evidence that “most players who dislike tech in some fashion would avoid the topic”? I think it might attract them, more than anything, because it seems people who don’t like tech try to badmouth it, as evidenced by this thread! :lol:It attracted you, it attracted Subotai, it attracted axis_roll, and about 5 others. :lol:
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No one is stopping you from making your own house rules.
Right, and it is a fact that many many A&A players started using house rules from Classic, continued in Revised, and also AA42 and AA50.
Almost all TripleA players plays/played w/o tech in Revised, and almost all TripleA players use bids to balance the game. Technically, bids are house rules b/c it is not an official optional rule.
Without one or several “house rules”, A&A would be completely boring and almost no one would wanted to play, especially b/c no A&A game is perfectly balanced like chess.Even if most players who voted on this tech poll, voted for tech, I strongly doubt that tech is favored by most experienced A&A players.
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I really don’t give a damn why you don’t like tech, or why you don’t like regular dice, or any of that.
funny coming from you, who:
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Encouraged people to post their own modified tech (some reasoning / basis would most likely be included in one’s house rule post)
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Defended Tech as superior to LL and/or No tech
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Sent me a PM saying Thanks for Posting our Tech House rules!
and NOW, NOW you say you don’t want to hear peoples thoughts about Tech?
Germanman01, your posts remind me of split personality poster. Open to discussions and thought exchange on day, then very closed minded and defensive to others with differing views another.
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Ok everybody had their say. Please stay on topic.
If you got house rules for Tech , post them in the proper section.
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It is a GAME it is supposed to be FUN! If the variability that tech provides does not appeal to you then don’t use tech but please do not pretend that those who actually enjoy that factor are backwards and poor strategic players. Same with LL. No one can deny that LL and reg dice are totally different games, just as tech/no tech are as well. I do wish that tech was more balanced, but this version is superior (IMHO) than others so things are movin g in the right direction! maybe AA40 Global will nail it evne better!
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@Subotai:
Almost all TripleA players plays/played w/o tech in Revised
I think that’s the most important thing to taking into account: in Revised, tech haters negated totally to use tech. Since tech in Revised was crappy anyway and only good in some rare cases, we tech fanboys didn’t cared much and prefered spent energy in playing rather in trying to save a crappy weapon. But now in AA50 tech is a very good weapon many games, so we tech fanboys will fight for tech! 8-)
Save the tech! :mrgreen:
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I’m going to venture to make a prediction, which is quite likely to be wrong, since at present most AA50 players on TripleA or elsewhere prefer tech. In one year, if AA50 is still popular, tech will be significantly less popular, because people will be more skilled at the game, and will want to test their skills against other players without the random variability of tech determining game outcomes……
But I could well be wrong about this. I would wonder…when Revised first came out, was it popular to play with tech, or was tech immediately unpopular?
Good post above by Critmonster…what people enjoy playing is a totally subjective thing.
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I’m going to venture to make a prediction, which is quite likely to be wrong, since at present most AA50 players on TripleA or elsewhere prefer tech. In one year, if AA50 is still popular……
I’m going to venture to make a prediction, which is quite likely to be wrong, that AA50 will still be very popular a year from now. I certainly don’t think AAP40 will replace it, because it’s so different, and is not world-wide in scale. I’m guessing the combined 1940 game will also not replace it, because it will be quite a bit different. Revised and AA50 aren’t that much different, really, not like the 1940 game will be. I mean, it’s even a different time frame (Revised and AA50 both have 1942). From perusing AAP40 a little bit, and looking at the ABattlemap (which is NOT attractive at all) it seems the 1940 games are more complicated (more rules - I mean, convoys, air bases, naval bases, tac bombers - it’s actually a little intimidating even to an A&A fan like me) and it remains to be seen how all the political conditions and rules will work together when you have Europe and Pacific put together……
Good post above by Critmonster…what people enjoy playing is a totally subjective thing.
Yes, a great post. I had PM’d him thanking him for it, before this post.
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The single biggest problem with tech, is the 3-4 extremely powerful gamebreaker techs, much more than the tech system itself.
It is practically the same as, if you’re a boxer or wrestler etc, and participate in a tournament, but instead of the way it is now, you could meet any opponent from any weight class…! Decided by a dice roll.
So even if you’re the world champion in boxing, weighting 65 kg, you will lose big time against an average boxer weighting 95 kg.
That is the effect of the 3-4 power techs in AA50, for the 5 biggest powers, UK, US, Russia, Germany and Japan.Even with the current system, sometimes, a boxer is K.O’ed in the first rnd, and then we might ask if he was ready to face a relative strong opponent, but there is a reason we got weight classes, and that’s b/c we don’t want to have built-in asymmetric fighting and competitive abilities.
The power techs in AA50 is exactly that, a built in mismatch if any side gets one or more power techs than the opponent. -
OK, I voted modified tech, but usually I have only been making one tweak. Increased production for 1 and 2 value territory is +1 instead of +0 or +2. I haven’t modified any others, but I’ve been thinking a lot about it.
Here’s what I’m leaning toward these days -
Delay LRA, HB, Paras, and mech infantry 1 turn (still not sure about this - always being at least somewhat prepared for these is a fun part of the game IMO)
OR
LRA - +1 instead of +2 OR cost of bombers increases +1 for each bomber tech acquired, so would cost 15 if you have heavies, LRA, and Paras (I’m leaning the most towards this one - I see it already has a lot of votes)
OR
Paratroopers - replace with something else, or get rid of it. It’s not a land tech anyway, it’s an air tech on the land tree (what the heck?). ALL countries start with paras, but bombers can’t attack when dropping them. However, paras can be dropped behind enemy lines and can be transported in NCM.Advanced art - supports THREE infantry each (two is a joke - almost never benefits the owner)
Bonds - automatic 4 or 5 a turn, or else d6+1 or 2
Jets - Fighters attack at 4 and defend at 5 (Yeah! Like Classic, only better!) and fighters cost 11
Man, I didn’t know I had this many ideas…
Mechanized infantry - it takes TWO armor to carry one infantry, but round up fractions (1 armor can carry 1 infantry, 2 armor can carry 1 infantry, 3 armor can carry 2 infantry, etc.Hey, I think these are some great ideas. What do you think?
This was my opening post. From many of the things you and others have written, I think you never read this, or you forgot about it. I’m not really a fierce proponent of OOB tech anyway.
It’s not like you have to choose between playing tech out of the box, or no tech at all. Other ideas that have come forward include Bombers costing +1 for each tech obtained (that applies to bombers) or each bomber can only use 1 tech ability each turn (not all 3 together, or even 2) Come up with your own ideas. You’re right, 4 of them are much more powerful than the rest, generally. So tweak them already.
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One idea could be to get rid of paras, mech inf, HBs, and LRA. Then if one side gets a tech, the opponent can decide to by the same tech directly for twice the price, and get the tech immediately, or wait one rnd and buy the same tech at the same price. Then the tech system would not be as flawed as it is now.
Even a “fair” system where you could buy a tech achieved by the opponent at once at the same price, but with the powertechs, all tech games would always be influenced by techs and not the standard abilities for the units in A&A.
Some TripleA mods have elite units which costs more (i.e. heavy tanks attack/defend @4), although I don’t play the custom mods, this is a much better system for changing the unit abilities than any tech system.
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@Subotai:
One idea could be to get rid of paras, mech inf, HBs, and LRA.
It’s possible, or maybe better doing them delayed techs. However, I think is a more pressing issue solving the unbalanced setups annyversary has: of course, if Germany or Japan get some of those tech early is game over, but more due the default advantage they have than effect of tech. Allies have enough to struggle defending trannies and such to spend money in tech; specially for UK, every IPC must be spent in units or boats, and the same goes for USSR. USA can afford at least one tech but without doubt Japan and Germany have much more money to spend on tech teams and that means tech usually favors axis
The most important problem of the game is that you cannot hold India and China at the same time even in a non tech game: one of them will fall in 42 scenario early, and both of them in 41 scenario. If it were round 5-6 I’d have no problem (Japan needs a decent chance of taking them), the problem is they fall usually round 1-3, and axis achieves economic advantage too early. USA has not enough money to support the two front war allies must fight, and in 1942 scenario Germany gets a free IC at Karelia from round 2-3. I find this more important than techs being random or not, and for resolve this, we should do at least two of these: delete Karelia IC in 1942, making China playable (both scenarios) and changing order of turns so Japan plays after UK (both scenarios)
Later we can make some techs delayed if really really needed. Anyway I don’t see techs being more unpopular in a couple of years: modified slighty, maybe, but not fully deleted
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Hopefully I can post some thoughts here without being called a jerk by the OP. :-o :cry:
Free idea exchanges get hampered when things turn personal.
I was looking at some previous tech modification thoughts and found this idea from bugoo:
As far as tech goes I would propose a point system. Assign a point value to each tech. Purchase researchers as normal. Roll as normal for research, but add up the total rolls and apply them toward the selected tech. You could assign different researches to different techs, but cannot change the tech they work on once purchased. Once point value is reached, tech is gained said researchers are lost. For example.
As US I want heavy bombers eventually, they are worth 30 research, so on turn 1 I purchase one heavy bomber researcher. I roll and get a 3. Now I need 27 more research to get heavy bombers. On turn 2 I decide I want super subs, and since that tech isn’t as powerful I only need 15 research to get them. I purchase 2 researchers, both for the subs as I want to sink japan’s navy now. I roll a 2 for my heavy bomber researcher, leaving 25 left, and then roll a 4 and a 5 for my subs, leaving 6 left and with any luck on turn 3 i’ll get my super subs.
This will allow you to slowly work at a tech, rush for it, and choose to go for the good but expensive techs, or take an easier, faster, tech, or all of the above. Now all nations may buy a heavy bomber researcher turn 1, but hey there is nothing wrong with that!
The neat thing about this is that it can be easily tweaked with out re-writing the whole process.
Can someone help create a list of point targets for each tech? I am not a big tech user, so my insights into tech has little knowledge base.
Along the lines of combined techs becoming too powerful (i.e. Long Range, Heavy Paratroopers), you could add that if one tech is attained (like HBs), the new target for Long Range for that country is increased by “6” or something like that.
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Can someone help create a list of point targets for each tech? I am not a big tech user, so my insights into tech has little knowledge base.
Tech Value
War bonds: 10
Advanced Artillery:10
Paratrooper: 20
IC: 20
Mech Inf: 25
Rockets: 20Shipyards: 15
Long Range: 20
Heavy Bombers: 30
Radar: 20
Jet Fighters: 15
Supersubs: 15The rules for tech are going to have to be modifeid alot, for if you can pick your tech the Eastern Front might end up being decided by who ever gets mech inf first as both Germany and the USSR will rush for that one. Every tech should have a counter of some sort. The counter for heavy bombers is radar.For mech inf, advanced artillery could be changed to be its counter and instead of provding its almost useless benefit it could provide some extra defence against tanks.
Also I think tech should also be adjusted for historical accuarcy, right now it dosnt really make sence that mech in and paratroopers are cost more or just as much as Jet fighters and Rockets
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