• I think I can succintly sum it up: You can either believe a Pullitzer prize winning author of more than a dozen civil war books… or Jen.

    M36, did you get a sense of history of the place? Ive always wanted to tour some of the battlegrounds but something always comes up.

  • '19 Moderator

    Smack, you put together a good assessment of the battle.  I don’t thing there’s any need for further argument :wink:

    Thomas Jackson has long been my favorite General when all time periods are included.  It’s amazing what difference was made at the loss of one semi-crazy guy.  I think if Jackson had been there and in control of Ewell’s (as well as Hills) Corps things would have been different.  I personally think Jackson was the best commander the Confederacy had and Lee was used to giving him free reign and having success because of it.

    At any rate your analysis was as enjoyable to read, as Jens was entertaining :wink:

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    dezrt,

    I’ve been told we cannot call him “Smack” and, evidentially, I’ve been locked out of Private Messages because I called him thus.


    Anyway, I think your Bruce Catton may have put his opinion on history.  Lee most assuredly lost in all three engagements by any measurement I can apply to the battle.

    And no, “almost winning” is not the same as winning.  “almost winning” is the same as losing.



    You have Catton, I have Foote:

    Shelby Dade Foote, Jr. (November 17, 1916 – June 27, 2005) was an American novelist and a noted historian of the American Civil War. With geographic and cultural roots in the Mississippi Delta alluvium, Foote’s life and writing paralleled the radical shift from the agrarian planter system of the Old South to the Civil Rights era of the New South. Foote was relatively unknown to the general public for most of his career until his appearance in Ken Burns’ PBS documentary The Civil War in 1990, where he introduced a generation of Americans to a war that he believed was “central to all our lives.”

    Upon approval for the new plan, Foote commenced to write the comprehensive three volume, 3000-page history, together entitled The Civil War: A Narrative. The individual volumes include Fort Sumter to Perryville (1958), Fredericksburg to Meridian (1963), and Red River to Appomattox (1974).

    Foote supported himself during the twenty years he worked on the narrative with Guggenheim Fellowships (1955-1957), Ford Foundation grants, and loans from Walker Percy.

    Foote labored to maintain his objectivity in the narrative despite his Southern upbringing. He deliberately avoided Lost Cause mythologizing in his work. He gained immense respect for such disparate figures as Ulysses Grant, William T. Sherman, Patrick Cleburne, and Edwin Stanton. He grew to despise such figures as Phil Sheridan and Joe Johnston. He considered United States President Abraham Lincoln and Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest to be two authentic geniuses of the war. He stated this opinion once in conversation with one of General Forrest’s granddaughters. She replied, “You know, we never thought much of Mr. Lincoln in my family.”

    Foote went on to narrate many Civil War documentaries.  His penchant for speaking as if the war were currently going on was a favorite among viewers and writers a like.

    Now, i can’t say he ever earned a Pulitzer, not that a Pulitzer is all that big of a deal when they give it to simple journalists anyway.  But it makes you wonder, if a southerner says that Lee lost all three days, shows you numbers lost on both sides, goes into great detail on how and where Lee lost, maybe Lee actually lost?

    Especially when you put it in perspective of this game, as I did above.  You cannot say that when you attack with 5 times the size of the defender on day 1, get your butt handed to you and finally take what is given to you when the defender decides it is time to leave that you won.

    Same with day 2.  You cannot throw multiple waves of attackers at the defender, get kicked back to the curb each time, and pretend you won.

    And, while I don’t think anyone is arguing this point, on Day 3 he royally lost.  Sure, he made it too the stone wall.  Guess what, the Union made it to the stone wall in Fredericksburg too!  The men who crossed over were nominated, by Southern Soldiers, for the medal of honor.  BOTH sides knew, WELL in advance that those types of attacks were insane and not very fruitful.  Lee decided to destroy his army as a serious fighting force, decimating moral and reducing his numbers significantly making the attempt anyway - DESPITE ALL HIS OFFICERS TELLING HIM OTHERWISE (and yes, Pickett wanted into the fight, but he did not necessarily want to make the charge of the Light Brigade seem wise and victorious!)


    Therefore, there are only two options:

    1)  Lee lost his bloody mind, at least temporarily.  Much akin to the player who just lost Japan to America and makes a last ditch effort, against all the odds, throwing everything he has at Russia in hopes of luck playing to his advantage. (Almost never works, but there’s a chance, albeit slim though it is.)

    2)  Lee realized that his invasion was doomed and with it, the cause of the south.  Thus, if he could incur enough casualties, maybe he could dishearten the patriots of his country into surrendering before the Federals could re-invade his homeland and return to pillaging and destroying the countryside.

    As for me, I want to believe it is number 2.  However, if you want to keep convincing me it was number 1, feel free.

  • '19 Moderator

    @Cmdr:

    dezrt,
    I’ve been told we cannot call him “Smack” and, evidentially, I’ve been locked out of Private Messages because I called him thus.

    There’s nothing wrong with Shortening a name, several of the times you shortened his name were intentionaly antagonistic.  You obviously know that, so letts play nice and drop the subject. :-)

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @dezrtfish:

    @Cmdr:

    dezrt,
    I’ve been told we cannot call him “Smack” and, evidentially, I’ve been locked out of Private Messages because I called him thus.

    There’s nothing wrong with Shortening a name, several of the times you shortened his name were intentionaly antagonistic.  You obviously know that, so letts play nice and drop the subject. :-)

    Let’s give back my access to PM and karma too. :P

    And twice I shorted it to the last four letters, the time Switch flew off the hook I shortened it to Smack like you did.  (Sorry, I’d keep this in PM and out of the public eye, but for some reason my PM access was cut off.)

  • '19 Moderator

    If that’s possible to do, a mod can’t do it, only admin.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @dezrtfish:

    If that’s possible to do, a mod can’t do it, only admin.

    Well, I’d ask an Admin, but I seem to not be able to do so.  Never heard of anyone being banned from private messenger. :P  Generally thats where Mods send you complaints about what you are doing!

    So if you could ask and email me, that’d be great. (I can’t even look at profiles atm.)


  • Jennifer could you provide a citation from Foote contradicting the ones Smacktard provided from Catton?

    You have provided Foote’s credentials which I will not dispute as being less than Catton’s. I will accept Foote as authoritative a source as Catton.

    What you have not done is provide evidence that Foote agrees with your interpretation of events.  :-)


  • Who is Bruce Catton?

    Man i grew up on that guy, That American Heritage book on the civil war will remain the worlds greatest classic tabletop book on the Civil War. He was the Stephen Ambrose of the 1950’s and 60’s.

    I have like 3 copies of that book and i used to sleep with it under my pillow. The most fascinating thing was those brilliant pictures of the battle scenes with the little soldiers all drawn by hand in full color. In preschool and first grade i wasted half the day staring at that, studying the various feints and charges and battlefield stories that were told by way of pictures. Its what led me to start playing with toy soldiers and latter wargames, and still latter Axis and Allies.

    The American Heritage Picture History of the Civil War (1960) — Catton wrote the narrative portion of this book, which also included over 800 paintings and period photographs. It received a special Pulitzer citation in 1961.

    everyone must own the above book. No question about it. Its like a bible for the starting point on learning this historical period. by now on ebay its only like $5

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Catton


  • Jen, what the hell are you under the influence of!!!??? On the first day of battle, the federal army was completely smashed. The 10th corp lost 10000 men in prisoners alone! The federals did not fall back, they ran as fast as their legs could carry them. They DID NOT choose to fall back, they where forced to.

    Smacktard: If you haven’t been to Gettysburg, you should really consider spending a couple of days out there. It is a little crowded, but to walk across the ground where general Lee’s men did is really quite an experience that words cant describe.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @frimmel:

    Jennifer could you provide a citation from Foote contradicting the ones Smacktard provided from Catton?

    You have provided Foote’s credentials which I will not dispute as being less than Catton’s. I will accept Foote as authoritative a source as Catton.

    What you have not done is provide evidence that Foote agrees with your interpretation of events.  :-)

    I did before, maybe it got lost in the background.

    Shelby Foote: The Civil War, a Narrative

    Chapter 5:

    • Gettysburg Opens, Meade Arrives (notes wonderfully how the American cavalry and elements of the First Infantry Corps held off two full corps of the Confederates giving Meade all the time he needed to move into position to the south of Gettysburg and thus denying the Confederates the chance of taking those positions themselves.  Also notes how Meade was very cautious and very slow moving, which is why General Buford needed to make a stand to allow him time to move in.  Had Meade been a more expedient man, then this engagement would not have needed to take place, probably.)

    • Gettysburg, July 2: Longstreet (Notes how the Union repelled attacks in the Peach Orchard, Little Round Top and battles on the other flank of the army after repeated assault by some of General Lee’s best and brightest inflicting significantly greater casualties on the enemy then they themselves sustained.  Note, a causality is not a death, it is also wounded men.  Again, it is noted that it was rank and file Union leaders who won the day for the American army, not generals and general staff.)

    • Gettysburg, Third Day: Pickett (Notes how General Pickett desperately wanted into the fight with his boys, but his personal misgivings about the battle plan set forth to him from General Longstreet on behalf of General Lee.  This could be hindsight moping, but it is in his personal journals and his journals are referenced.  )

    • Gettysburg, Lee’s Retreat.  (General information of minor skirmishes between cavalry units as Lee tucks tail and runs for the safety of Virginia after being totally beaten at Gettysburg.)

    Here’s a review of his description of just the battle of Gettysburg:

    Gettysburg is described with such meticulous attention to action, terrain, time and the characters of the various commanders that I understand, at las, what happened in that battle.  Mr. Foote has an acute sense of the relative importance of events and a novelist’s skill in directing the reader’s attention to the men and the episodes that will influence the course of the whole war, without omitting items which are of momentary interest.  His organization of facts could hardly be bettered.

    -Atlantic


    Now, that said, one should also remember that it was much harder for Lee to replace captured cannons, destroyed cannons, lost men; etc.  The Americans had these materials in abundance and thus, could afford to lose more men then Lee if they had too.

    It’s said that Lee lost less then Meade on Day 1.  However, another point that should be raised is that the American Cavalry unit only had 2400 men and held off 9700 of Heth’s men for hours waiting for elements of the 1st corps to arrive.  By the time Lee was able to get reserves forward to help Heth, First corps was in place and helping Buford.

    After the day’s fighting, Buford and 1st Corps moved back to the rest of the Union lines, their job done.  They had allowed the Americans to gain the high ground and given them time to fortify themselves.

    To me, that’s a win.  You hold off a numerically superior force for an entire day, allowing 6 Corps of American infantry to get in line and dig in and then withdraw to more secure lines after inflicting serious wounds on the enemy, and I don’t see how anyone can call that a loss!

    Hell, boys, if you attack Caucasus with Germany, lose 30 infantry and 5 tanks, and I retreat 20 infantry, 10 tanks to Moscow (losing 15 infantry in the defense) that’s a win.  Especially if on your attack on Moscow goes bad and then I attack and push you all the way back into Europe!  And that, in game terms, is exactly what happened at Gettysburg.


  • You “note”? Here are some actual QUOTES from Foote (who NEVER considers the idea Lee ordered Pickett’s charge out of any other motive other than VICTORY).

    On Meade:

    "One more item concerned Lee, though few of his lieutenants agreed that it should be so. They were saying that Meade was about as able a general as Hooker, but considerably less bold, and they were exchanging congratulations on Lincoln’s appointment of another mediocre opponent for them. Lee, who had known the Pennsylvanian as a fellow engineer in the old army, did not agree. “General Meade will commit no blunder on my front," he said, "and if I make one he will make haste to take advantage of it.”

    Day 1:

    The Federals were retreating pell-mell into the streets of Gettysburg, already jammed with other blue troops pouring down from the north, under pressure from Ewell, as into a funnel whose spout extended south.”

    “These two hills, their summits a hundred feet above the town, which in turn was about half that far below the crest of Seminary Ridge, afforded the enemy a strong position — indeed, a natural fortess — on which to rally his whipped and panicky troops

    “Moreover, both of these reasons for continuing the offensive were merely adjunctive to Lee’s natural inclination, here as elsewhere, now as always, to keep a beaten opponent under pressure, adn thus off balance, just as long as his own troops had wind and strength enough to put one foot in front of the other.
            - The Federals are driven from Seminary Ridge”

    Day Two:

    “And yet, in light of the fact that each of the three attacking divisions in turn had come close to carrying the day, there was more to it than that. Specifically, there was Warren and there was Hancock, both of whom had served their commander in a way that none of Lee’s chief lieutenants had served him.”

    http://homepage.eircom.net/%257Eodyssey/Quotes/History/Shelby_Foote_2.html#2-4

    Odd, how Foote’s actual quotes dovetail with Catton. Both admit the federals were routed on day 1, both admit Lee had come very close on day two, and (though Foote doesn’t specifically mention Ewell), both talk about the strengths of certain Union officers (Chamberlain, Hancock, Warren), and the weaknesses of others (Ewell, Sickles).

    Now, as Drzt says, maybe we can put this to rest? What turned into an interestikng hypothetical has become an exercise in fanaticism and futility.


  • One last: Jen made the point that to almost win is the same as losing. Not true. For example, if I punch someone in the face repeatedly, and ALMOST knock him out, did I somehow lose the fight? Meade’s forces were defeated on the first day… Meade was punched repeatedly on the 2nd, but stayed on his feet… Lee thought he could land the knock-out blow with Pickett, and failed.

    That is basically Gettysberg, in one paragraph.

    Edit:

    Just to extend the metaphore further, Gettysberg was like a three-round fight:

    Round 1: Lee cautiously approaches Meade. Lee lands several devastating blows. Meade staggers. Lee continues pummelling Meade, but Meade is saved by the bell. Meade retreats to his corner and regroups.
    Lee wins the round.

    Round 2: Meade assumes a defensive stance. Lee pummels Meade the entire round, opening up several cuts. Meade reels, staggers, drops to the ground twice, but Lee misses several knockout blows. Meade counters and bloodies Lee.
    Lee narrowly wins the round on points.

    Round 3: Meade keeps his defensive stance, knows Lee will go for the knockout blow to the center. Lee begins the round with a weak attack that Meade easily counters. Lee and Meade circle each other warily. Lee, unaware he is ahead on points, throws one last desperate haymaker. Meade guards his center. Lee breaks his hand on Meade’s forearm. Meade, barely conscious, has a chance to finish the fight, but is too battered, bruised and bloodied to do anything but wait for the bell.

    Lee is unable to continue the fight. Meade wins a TKO.

    Edited cause I like boxing.

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