• '19 Moderator

    If that’s possible to do, a mod can’t do it, only admin.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @dezrtfish:

    If that’s possible to do, a mod can’t do it, only admin.

    Well, I’d ask an Admin, but I seem to not be able to do so.  Never heard of anyone being banned from private messenger. :P  Generally thats where Mods send you complaints about what you are doing!

    So if you could ask and email me, that’d be great. (I can’t even look at profiles atm.)


  • Jennifer could you provide a citation from Foote contradicting the ones Smacktard provided from Catton?

    You have provided Foote’s credentials which I will not dispute as being less than Catton’s. I will accept Foote as authoritative a source as Catton.

    What you have not done is provide evidence that Foote agrees with your interpretation of events.  :-)


  • Who is Bruce Catton?

    Man i grew up on that guy, That American Heritage book on the civil war will remain the worlds greatest classic tabletop book on the Civil War. He was the Stephen Ambrose of the 1950’s and 60’s.

    I have like 3 copies of that book and i used to sleep with it under my pillow. The most fascinating thing was those brilliant pictures of the battle scenes with the little soldiers all drawn by hand in full color. In preschool and first grade i wasted half the day staring at that, studying the various feints and charges and battlefield stories that were told by way of pictures. Its what led me to start playing with toy soldiers and latter wargames, and still latter Axis and Allies.

    The American Heritage Picture History of the Civil War (1960) — Catton wrote the narrative portion of this book, which also included over 800 paintings and period photographs. It received a special Pulitzer citation in 1961.

    everyone must own the above book. No question about it. Its like a bible for the starting point on learning this historical period. by now on ebay its only like $5

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Catton


  • Jen, what the hell are you under the influence of!!!??? On the first day of battle, the federal army was completely smashed. The 10th corp lost 10000 men in prisoners alone! The federals did not fall back, they ran as fast as their legs could carry them. They DID NOT choose to fall back, they where forced to.

    Smacktard: If you haven’t been to Gettysburg, you should really consider spending a couple of days out there. It is a little crowded, but to walk across the ground where general Lee’s men did is really quite an experience that words cant describe.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @frimmel:

    Jennifer could you provide a citation from Foote contradicting the ones Smacktard provided from Catton?

    You have provided Foote’s credentials which I will not dispute as being less than Catton’s. I will accept Foote as authoritative a source as Catton.

    What you have not done is provide evidence that Foote agrees with your interpretation of events.  :-)

    I did before, maybe it got lost in the background.

    Shelby Foote: The Civil War, a Narrative

    Chapter 5:

    • Gettysburg Opens, Meade Arrives (notes wonderfully how the American cavalry and elements of the First Infantry Corps held off two full corps of the Confederates giving Meade all the time he needed to move into position to the south of Gettysburg and thus denying the Confederates the chance of taking those positions themselves.  Also notes how Meade was very cautious and very slow moving, which is why General Buford needed to make a stand to allow him time to move in.  Had Meade been a more expedient man, then this engagement would not have needed to take place, probably.)

    • Gettysburg, July 2: Longstreet (Notes how the Union repelled attacks in the Peach Orchard, Little Round Top and battles on the other flank of the army after repeated assault by some of General Lee’s best and brightest inflicting significantly greater casualties on the enemy then they themselves sustained.  Note, a causality is not a death, it is also wounded men.  Again, it is noted that it was rank and file Union leaders who won the day for the American army, not generals and general staff.)

    • Gettysburg, Third Day: Pickett (Notes how General Pickett desperately wanted into the fight with his boys, but his personal misgivings about the battle plan set forth to him from General Longstreet on behalf of General Lee.  This could be hindsight moping, but it is in his personal journals and his journals are referenced.  )

    • Gettysburg, Lee’s Retreat.  (General information of minor skirmishes between cavalry units as Lee tucks tail and runs for the safety of Virginia after being totally beaten at Gettysburg.)

    Here’s a review of his description of just the battle of Gettysburg:

    Gettysburg is described with such meticulous attention to action, terrain, time and the characters of the various commanders that I understand, at las, what happened in that battle.  Mr. Foote has an acute sense of the relative importance of events and a novelist’s skill in directing the reader’s attention to the men and the episodes that will influence the course of the whole war, without omitting items which are of momentary interest.  His organization of facts could hardly be bettered.

    -Atlantic


    Now, that said, one should also remember that it was much harder for Lee to replace captured cannons, destroyed cannons, lost men; etc.  The Americans had these materials in abundance and thus, could afford to lose more men then Lee if they had too.

    It’s said that Lee lost less then Meade on Day 1.  However, another point that should be raised is that the American Cavalry unit only had 2400 men and held off 9700 of Heth’s men for hours waiting for elements of the 1st corps to arrive.  By the time Lee was able to get reserves forward to help Heth, First corps was in place and helping Buford.

    After the day’s fighting, Buford and 1st Corps moved back to the rest of the Union lines, their job done.  They had allowed the Americans to gain the high ground and given them time to fortify themselves.

    To me, that’s a win.  You hold off a numerically superior force for an entire day, allowing 6 Corps of American infantry to get in line and dig in and then withdraw to more secure lines after inflicting serious wounds on the enemy, and I don’t see how anyone can call that a loss!

    Hell, boys, if you attack Caucasus with Germany, lose 30 infantry and 5 tanks, and I retreat 20 infantry, 10 tanks to Moscow (losing 15 infantry in the defense) that’s a win.  Especially if on your attack on Moscow goes bad and then I attack and push you all the way back into Europe!  And that, in game terms, is exactly what happened at Gettysburg.


  • You “note”? Here are some actual QUOTES from Foote (who NEVER considers the idea Lee ordered Pickett’s charge out of any other motive other than VICTORY).

    On Meade:

    "One more item concerned Lee, though few of his lieutenants agreed that it should be so. They were saying that Meade was about as able a general as Hooker, but considerably less bold, and they were exchanging congratulations on Lincoln’s appointment of another mediocre opponent for them. Lee, who had known the Pennsylvanian as a fellow engineer in the old army, did not agree. “General Meade will commit no blunder on my front," he said, "and if I make one he will make haste to take advantage of it.”

    Day 1:

    The Federals were retreating pell-mell into the streets of Gettysburg, already jammed with other blue troops pouring down from the north, under pressure from Ewell, as into a funnel whose spout extended south.”

    “These two hills, their summits a hundred feet above the town, which in turn was about half that far below the crest of Seminary Ridge, afforded the enemy a strong position — indeed, a natural fortess — on which to rally his whipped and panicky troops

    “Moreover, both of these reasons for continuing the offensive were merely adjunctive to Lee’s natural inclination, here as elsewhere, now as always, to keep a beaten opponent under pressure, adn thus off balance, just as long as his own troops had wind and strength enough to put one foot in front of the other.
            - The Federals are driven from Seminary Ridge”

    Day Two:

    “And yet, in light of the fact that each of the three attacking divisions in turn had come close to carrying the day, there was more to it than that. Specifically, there was Warren and there was Hancock, both of whom had served their commander in a way that none of Lee’s chief lieutenants had served him.”

    http://homepage.eircom.net/%257Eodyssey/Quotes/History/Shelby_Foote_2.html#2-4

    Odd, how Foote’s actual quotes dovetail with Catton. Both admit the federals were routed on day 1, both admit Lee had come very close on day two, and (though Foote doesn’t specifically mention Ewell), both talk about the strengths of certain Union officers (Chamberlain, Hancock, Warren), and the weaknesses of others (Ewell, Sickles).

    Now, as Drzt says, maybe we can put this to rest? What turned into an interestikng hypothetical has become an exercise in fanaticism and futility.


  • One last: Jen made the point that to almost win is the same as losing. Not true. For example, if I punch someone in the face repeatedly, and ALMOST knock him out, did I somehow lose the fight? Meade’s forces were defeated on the first day… Meade was punched repeatedly on the 2nd, but stayed on his feet… Lee thought he could land the knock-out blow with Pickett, and failed.

    That is basically Gettysberg, in one paragraph.

    Edit:

    Just to extend the metaphore further, Gettysberg was like a three-round fight:

    Round 1: Lee cautiously approaches Meade. Lee lands several devastating blows. Meade staggers. Lee continues pummelling Meade, but Meade is saved by the bell. Meade retreats to his corner and regroups.
    Lee wins the round.

    Round 2: Meade assumes a defensive stance. Lee pummels Meade the entire round, opening up several cuts. Meade reels, staggers, drops to the ground twice, but Lee misses several knockout blows. Meade counters and bloodies Lee.
    Lee narrowly wins the round on points.

    Round 3: Meade keeps his defensive stance, knows Lee will go for the knockout blow to the center. Lee begins the round with a weak attack that Meade easily counters. Lee and Meade circle each other warily. Lee, unaware he is ahead on points, throws one last desperate haymaker. Meade guards his center. Lee breaks his hand on Meade’s forearm. Meade, barely conscious, has a chance to finish the fight, but is too battered, bruised and bloodied to do anything but wait for the bell.

    Lee is unable to continue the fight. Meade wins a TKO.

    Edited cause I like boxing.

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