Much appreciated. So then naval bombardment does count towards a combat move
Is killing Sea Zone 110 an absolute must?
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No it is not. I always ignore 110 and with my strategy they never cause me a problem. Obviously I have counters for them if they decide to stay around
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I normally strafe sz111 with the bb. I see now that it is really a mistake for the defenders to opt out of the scramble to sz110 with that attack, but most do.
My main theory is to keep the German bb alive to protect w Germany and Norway later in the game. Sometimes players can run the damaged sz111 bb back to Canada to be repaired but this takes it out of the game for a number of rounds. Still, if that bb combines with a us cv and a scramble in sz110, it is almost impossible to dislodge the fleet at least until Moscow is down and your air can run home.
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@Charles:
I don’t understand why you’re sending 6 planes to 109 and four to 111. 109 can manage four scrambling fighters. You only need five planes to make it a battle in your favor. If UK scrambles, it’s Sea Lion time. 111 needs the five planes though to be safe. I also fail to see how the TUV is in UK’s favor:
Sea Zone 109:
1 submarine, 2 fighters, 2 tactical bombers, 1 strategic bomber vs. 1 destroyer and 4 fighters:
CALC: three hits average both sides.
1 fighter, 1 tactical bomber, 1 strategic bomber vs 2 fighters
CALC: 2-1 hits average
Surviving: 1 German strategic bomber plus another plane. Even if the Germans lost all but one plane, a British destroyer and transport went down in exchange for a sub, making up for the slightly higher value of tactical bombers.
–This is three planes for four=battle in Germany’s favor. Of course the Allies could get lucky, but so could Germany.One less bomber reduces your odds to 72% or thereabouts (average tuv swing of +10). If Allies don’t scramble, it’s an average swing of +13. So 28% of scoring a win G1. Maybe some players wouldn’t risk it, but I would scramble every time. Losing all the figs in 109 won’t prevent UK from consolidating 92, so even if Germany gets some lucky dice, a Sea Lion followup is not necessarily going to be easy.
Re. 111, with the extra bomber you have 96% with the scramble. I’d prolly scramble 109 against that deployment but the 111 scramble also changes the average swing from +30 to +25 (plus the 4% chance of winning the battle).
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I think I see what was confusing me, Zhukov. You’re comparing the total units lost in a non-scramble battle versus a scramble battle. Even though the UK is going to lose more units on average, what you’re saying is that the scramble tightens the gap and forces Germany to lose more stuff as well. Good point.
Simon, I’m interested in your reasoning of why the Allies should scramble 110 if you’re doing a 111 strafe. Does this logic also apply to a standard wipe-out attack on both 110 and 111? In a 11 strafe, are you leaving more submarines to hit other places like 106 and 91?
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Just to throw in a thought …
By leaving 111 alive you would grant UK a destroyer which would immediately be put to use huntig your surviving submarines.
Whereas one of the big benefits of your original plan was a “destroyerless” Britain.
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@Charles:
I think I see what was confusing me, Zhukov. You’re comparing the total units lost in a non-scramble battle versus a scramble battle. Even though the UK is going to lose more units on average, what you’re saying is that the scramble tightens the gap and forces Germany to lose more stuff as well. Good point.
Simon, I’m interested in your reasoning of why the Allies should scramble 110 if you’re doing a 111 strafe. Does this logic also apply to a standard wipe-out attack on both 110 and 111? In a 11 strafe, are you leaving more submarines to hit other places like 106 and 91?
I’m referring to the point upthread that if the Germans don’t bring the BB into SZ110, every hit the RAF get downs a Luftwaffe. Given that the first round Luftwaffe hits can usually be taken on the Royal Navy, you’re talking about 3-4 Luftwaffe destroyed (unless they retreat after round 1 I guess) for the loss of 3 allied fighters which aren’t worth as much in the game. As Allies I would gladly trade 1 RAF for 1 Luftwaffe and probably even 3 for 2. The French fighter is worth even less than the RAF as well.
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Not a must but it buys Germany and Italy some time.
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The French fighter is worth even less? With that mentality no wonder some of those French patriots left the RAF to fly Yaks for the Soviets. Besides, we mustn’t forget that France has a unique ability no other Allied power possess: going after Italy. Sometimes that French fighter can he a pain for this very reason.
On a more serious note, are you not bringing in submarines to attack 110 in your 111 strafe scenario?
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No dd, no sub hits by RAF
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@Charles:
The French fighter is worth even less? With that mentality no wonder some of those French patriots left the RAF to fly Yaks for the Soviets. Besides, we mustn’t forget that France has a unique ability no other Allied power possess: going after Italy. Sometimes that French fighter can he a pain for this very reason.
On a more serious note, are you not bringing in submarines to attack 110 in your 111 strafe scenario?
heh heh
yea I try to save the French ftr just because it can’t reproduce. Or is unlikely too : ) 2 inf on an allied trprt with a ftr does project some power that can’t be completely ignored
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heh heh
yea I try to save the French ftr just because it can’t reproduce. Or is unlikely too : ) 2 inf on an allied trprt with a ftr does project�  some power that can’t be completely ignored
Nice idea, 2 French infantry on a UK Tranny and 1 French Fighter on a UK Carrier, starting from Gibraltar Naval Base, moving after US, UK and Italy, must keep this in mind and try next game….
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@Charles:
On a more serious note, are you not bringing in submarines to attack 110 in your 111 strafe scenario?
What colt said.
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Fighters or no fighters, my question still remains. Are you bringing in a submarine or three to take hits from the cruiser and battleship?
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@Charles:
Fighters or no fighters, my question still remains. Are you bringing in a submarine or three to take hits from the cruiser and battleship?
Yes, two.
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I agree with the above statement that the importance of preserving the Luftwaffe outweighs the need to take out the BB in SZ110, in addition to any fighters scrambled. Additionally, by foregoing SZ110, as Germany you can also preserve your BB on G1 for use in later rounds or in the hopes of consolidating your fleet with the Italians in the Med.
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My concern about leaving a UK fleet of any kind is making it easier for them to:
- build in ME or Africa immediately because they don’t have to spend for defense in London
- they can more easily put together a landing fleet to take Norway, or with U.S. help, enter the Baltic, or simply force me to keep a strong defense force on W. Germany and Paris.
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And when the US does come knocking it means that they can spend almost fully on trannys and men rather than carriers and destroyers to protect them, which means more of them will come or the Japanese player will take even more heat.
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I had many games where I skipped 110, I had also games where I skipped 111.
The difference to not attacking both, 110 and 111 is reduced variance.
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Well, it depends on the level of the allied players. I can usually tell by my opponents uk1/us1 moves and buys whether I have a 100% to perhaps little over 50% chance to win the game, depending on bid. A lot of players give the allies away at too high a bid, and take the allies at too low a bid. All of this is much more important than if Germany decides to attack only one of the two szs. :evil:
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