Avoid China



  • Anyone think there might come a time when a strategy to avoid China completely may dominate? I havent read the NOs for Japan in awhile, Im sure this might stop them from grabbing +5ipcs… but from what I can tell China cannot attack any TTs that werent originally hers to begin with, so let them build up 4 infantry per round, who cares if you never intend to attack. Instead you can use those units that wouldve been bogged down there to invade india instead. Those chinese TTs are only worth 1ipc each anyways. I suppose someone will say the VC is important in there… hmmm.



  • China can attack and conquer Manchuria and Kiangsu, so as Japan I would want to get rid of China asap. China seems fair game.


  • 2007 AAR League

    It also depends on what the real setup actually is like…
    We’ve had it confirmed that the BGG pictures are wrong.
    I sure as hell hope that china gets more inf , than the pics on BGG. If china starts w/only 4 inf + 1 ftr, I’d say Japan should ALWAY kill China. It is IPCs very easily gained…


  • Official Answers

    There are actually two Victory Cities within the territories Chinese forces are allowed to occupy - Shanghai and Hong Kong.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    If you avoid China is seems like a virus left unchecked causing cancer in your position. 2 VC cant be passed up for the token of killing a few measly infantry. Its cheapest investment and the best pay off on average.

    Lets see the 1941 set up, because if you go by BGG pics, China loses 4 territories on J1 and probably 2 more on J2.

    I would make a strategy of Avoid Russia for Japan because all these worthless Soviet back country spots is a total waste.

    I would go after UK IPC all the way.



  • If Japan can avoid China then the design of the game failed.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    yep



  • Then, the game design is flawed, even before knowing the true setup. China not allowed go out of China (and the whole minor popping inf status) is bugged. Minor popping inf status leads to some minor bugs involving conquered ICs and aa guns (but at least it will happen few times)

    China not allowed attack Japaneses leads to avoid China strat. What if Chineses conquer both Manchuria and Kwantung? OK, it’s 11 IPCs less (6 for lovers of only-mandatory-stuff) , but you would need about the same amount to fight the chineses with uncertain result. Now you can focus in any IC UK could buy (Australia or mainly India) without caring about Chineses. Evacuate both territories J1 and aim for USA or Moscow (your choice, if allies try ignore Japan strat) or simply Moscow if allies go global war strat. What about VCs? Well, allies need more than 2 vcs to win and anyway you have India and Australia at your reach. Simply conquer Moscow or California and it’s game won for axis anyway, you don’t have to care of china in all the very game

    Only Hong Kong could do anything, but it would need a IC  :-o, a succesfull tech roll on improved industry and then start building ships there  :-P. But many will not allow tech  😛 and still the deploy of this strat (another bug, by the way) would cost at the very least 20 ipcs and any costly ships you could buy (ships that can be destroyed easily by Japan’s navy unless they are beaten anyway)

    The best and simpler is mod that buggy rule: change “China cannot go out China” for “China cannot enter allied territories but they can attack axis territories at pleasure”. Or, of course, make China a normal playable country with normal IC and such, as should.

    I think at least some players will try avoid China, think how many players ignore Japan now (and Japan can go out Japan, opposite to China  😄 ). Modding is needed I fear.



  • Im sure at some point Ill be interested enough to see how avoiding china affects the game, for better or for worse.  :?

    The one thing Im thinking, can China take back HongKong and it will revert to UK control? If that is the case, I suppose the UK could buy a factory there after china has reinforced it with a dumpload of inf. making it a pretty nice fortress…

    It all depends on the starting setup, if china is too well fortified, the ‘avoid china’ strat will be more likely, if they are weak like you guys have seen with the unofficial setup, then taking them out asap will be the better way to go. Its all speculation at this point…



  • @ShredZ:

    The one thing Im thinking, can China take back HongKong and it will revert to UK control? If that is the case, I suppose the UK could buy a factory there after china has reinforced it with a dumpload of inf. making it a pretty nice fortress…

    It all depends on the starting setup, if china is too well fortified, the ‘avoid china’ strat will be more likely, if they are weak like you guys have seen with the unofficial setup, then taking them out asap will be the better way to go. Its all speculation at this point…

    Yea, Hong Kong reverts to UK, so a IC built there could pop guys there, but probably they would not affect much unless they had improved industry tech. It could disrupt japanese Indian IC race to Moscow or Africa, but I wonder if UK can afford the cost.

    Better don’t talk about a China controled former japanese IC in Manchuria, that’s another different bug. Even if soviets or USA conquer it, reverts to China and becomes useless after a long and hard fight  😛

    I think you said is true, if China is too strong, players will ignore it. If too weak, will toast it.

    ¡¡ China true playable power now!!  😄 :mrgreen:



  • After taking the islands to get some IPC, Japan could completely ignore China for a rush India strategy.  Once India falls, on to Russia/Africa through the south, ignoring the chinese territories completely, maybe sending a token force to Northeast Russia to weaken the Russian economy.  Screw hong kong when you can have Moscow  😄

    Investing troops (and therefore cash) into China would result in a more powerful Japan once China has been pacified, but at that point the Allies will likely have gained the momentum they need.  The Axis strategy should be to hit em fast and hard, and wasting funds on a power that cannot attack you on the basis of being stronger LATER is contrary to basic Axis strategy.

    Ignoring China to dominate mid-east, pacific, and the caucus region = KUSPL Kill US Player Last  😄


  • 2007 AAR League

    Hongkong is a 1 ipc territory. Not a very good spot to locate an IC for UK, imho.



  • Welll many of you i am guessing want china to be a playabe player right!

    Well look at The war game: world war two

    I do not have it, but i have thought about it!  A&A anniversary or world war 2 hm……

    Well a&a anniversary i can count on and is new i have the game figured out in soewhat or        a france, china, italy, germany, gb russia, and usa game man france! 1939 yes this would be pro and lybia= 5ipc wonder if africa important!



  • @Perry:

    Hongkong is a 1 ipc territory. Not a very good spot to locate an IC for UK, imho.

    Lol, I didnt check before I thought of a factory there, in that case the factory is off, +1 for leaving china to stew by themselves.



  • Well, it’s too early I think to say how China works out. No-one has played with the correct set-up. We know China has more than those measly 1 infantry per front territory, and if they have enough of a starting army I think they will be a viable defensive power.

    I’m with you Funcioneta on the problem with ICs on Chinese soil, but if China is strong enough in defense I really don’t care if they will get to use a Japanese IC since they will have fulfilled their purpose. And it is historically correct in a way, the Allies never could supply China with any industrial materials since the Japs had taken all the ports and railways.

    The probable two Japanese options will be to contain or destroy. Losing Manchuria and Kiangsu when they are so easily defended is a bad idea. Contain means you keep the coast of China and keep the army build up down with some attacks (the historical strategy more or less). Destroy means you commit tanks and fighters enough to conquer China and then maybe attack towards Russia, obviously an IC in Manchuria is a great thing for this strategy. The game is OK if these two strategies are the choices to make and Japan has to sacrifice significant forces from other fronts to do the “destroy” strat!



  • 1st round means a lot and to me and so i have to think about will usa attack me more, split, germany  if split or germany i can see china dieing but i beleive a usa all on japan smeels trouble for japan since japanese woudlnt be a strong continder in asia (chinese win yes)



  • @Lynxes:

    I’m with you Funcioneta on the problem with ICs on Chinese soil, but if China is strong enough in defense I really don’t care if they will get to use a Japanese IC since they will have fulfilled their purpose.

    The problem is not China needing build something there. The problem is other allies cannot use the IC. Per example, soviets would not use Manchuria IC, even if in real war they occupied Manchuria. Not that soviets need it in game, sure, but think USA: in revised, a Pacific strat was aiming for Borneo or East Indies and then build a IC there to finally kill jap’s fleet. Now both territories revert to UK and mainland China reverts to China. USA’s fleet will suffer from logistics unless they take Philippines (now 2 IPCs worth  😛  and too near from Japan), oki (1 IPC) or FIC, and FIC usually cannot be taken and hold. If bad logistics were planed to counter new China status, OK, but I fear Dutch East Indies being UK controled and Chinese territories reverting to China both were for historical reasons, not balancing. Only time will tell us (because WOTC are marketing geniuses, 2 weeks from release and still no news  :-P)

    However, agreed with the other items



  • Probably the rule says if China captures an enemy IC that IC is destroyed. This would make it simple. AA guns would be captured.



  • What messing around I have done with the battlemap module leads me to the completely opposite opinion. Now granted we know the set up is incorrect but I think the map is presumed to be accurate.

    China and all those new Russian territories are an absolute boon to Japan. While none of them are worth much individually IPC wise there are many of them. They are also quite removed from the Allies. This equates to a bunch of money for Japan that is safe. Yes the national objectives in the Pacific are nice but those many safe territories in my opinion are even nicer.



  • @Flying:

    Probably the rule says if China captures an enemy IC that IC is destroyed. This would make it simple. AA guns would be captured.

    That would be odd. I hate China having so much non normal rules.



  • @Funcioneta:

    Then, the game design is flawed, even before knowing the true setup. China not allowed go out of China (and the whole minor popping inf status) is bugged. Minor popping inf status leads to some minor bugs involving conquered ICs and aa guns (but at least it will happen few times)

    China not allowed attack Japaneses leads to avoid China strat. What if Chineses conquer both Manchuria and Kwantung? OK, it’s 11 IPCs less (6 for lovers of only-mandatory-stuff) , but you would need about the same amount to fight the chineses with uncertain result. Now you can focus in any IC UK could buy (Australia or mainly India) without caring about Chineses. Evacuate both territories J1 and aim for USA or Moscow (your choice, if allies try ignore Japan strat) or simply Moscow if allies go global war strat. What about VCs? Well, allies need more than 2 vcs to win and anyway you have India and Australia at your reach. Simply conquer Moscow or California and it’s game won for axis anyway, you don’t have to care of china in all the very game

    Only Hong Kong could do anything, but it would need a IC  :-o, a succesfull tech roll on improved industry and then start building ships there  :-P. But many will not allow tech  😛 and still the deploy of this strat (another bug, by the way) would cost at the very least 20 ipcs and any costly ships you could buy (ships that can be destroyed easily by Japan’s navy unless they are beaten anyway)

    The best and simpler is mod that buggy rule: change “China cannot go out China” for “China cannot enter allied territories but they can attack axis territories at pleasure”. Or, of course, make China a normal playable country with normal IC and such, as should.

    I think at least some players will try avoid China, think how many players ignore Japan now (and Japan can go out Japan, opposite to China   😄 ). Modding is needed I fear.

    I was one of the people who played this game at GenCon. I controlled Japan. I felt like I was under pressure everywhere, and therefore not in a position to deliver decisive pressure of my own.

    J1: My starting income was only 17 IPCs, so I felt I had to expand quickly to have a chance to keep up with the Allies over the long term. The most obvious expansion opportunity was Pacific islands such as the Philippines and the East Indies. The need to take those places meant that early on, I was sending fewer troops to the mainland. Also on J1, I focused on taking Chinese territories, and on sinking as much of the Allied fleet as possible.

    J2: By now there was a factory in India. Because I’d focused on increasing my income in my previous turn, my units were not in a position to threaten the factory. In any case, I decided China was a more urgent priority than India. My plan was to eliminate the Chinese problem first, the Indian problem second, and somewhere in there start putting pressure on the eastern Soviet Union. My ability to execute these plans was hampered by my low income, and by the fact that the U.S. player was pumping all his resources into the Pacific.

    J3: I think this was the turn that Greg moved a large Soviet force right next to the Manchurian border. (Or maybe he waited until USSR4.) I destroyed this force, and I think I obtained a favorable exchange. I was left with a relatively small force at the end. Those few remaining units were able to slowly push westward. However, I wasn’t in a position to send very many additional units to that theater, because my strength was very badly needed elsewhere. China was proving to be a more lingering problem than I’d anticipated. Bad die rolls cost me some battles I should have won. This meant that China received more infantry than should have. There were times when China was able to use large infantry forces to retake weakly-held Japanese territories. (Some of this was my fault for not making those territories stronger, and some of it was dice.)  I was becoming bogged down in China–and the Chinese player receiving too many infantry–at the very time when I most needed to be applying decisive, crushing pressure in that theater. I simply wasn’t in a position to send more strength there, because of the need to counter the U.S. naval threat, and because of the pressure Britain and the Soviets were applying.

    J4: It was either by J4 or J5 that I began devoting a large portion of my production to naval units. I had to have a stronger fleet than the U.S. fleet, or else I would have started losing my income-producing islands. I was too weak economically already, and the loss of those islands would have been devastating for me. (Bear in mind that we were playing without the national advantages–a fact which probably unbalanced the game in favor of the Allies.) I’d made some progress in gaining income, both with islands and on the mainland. But the American income, alone, was higher than mine, and all of it was being thrown against me. Add to that the Chinese infantry that kept regrowing each turn, and the three units Britain kept pumping into India, and it was clear that the Allies were building up their strength in that area faster than I could build up mine.

    Nor were things going well elsewhere. The Soviet Union had initially given some ground to the German advance. But the Germans reached a point where they could advance no further because there was too large a pile of Soviet infantry in the way. Then, the Soviets began grimly pushing the Germans back. This wasn’t so much a case of big battles being fought, as it was a case of the German player realizing that he was overextended and needed to withdraw westward a territory. Then a turn or two later he’d be forced to withdraw westward by another territory. It was clear that, eventually, the Soviet Amy would push all the way to Berlin.

    The lone bright spot was that when the game ended, the Allied resistance to an Italian conquest of Africa had basically been eliminated. Africa would likely have gone over to the Italians, providing the Axis with much-needed income. But it wouldn’t have been enough.

    The first point I’d like to make with all this is that you are suggesting a rules change that would benefit the Allies, and I’m firmly convinced that’s the absolute last thing this game needs. (To anyone who thinks the Flying Tigers shouldn’t be destroyed on J1, the same thing applies: the Allies have it too good already.)

    I made mistakes early on, such as buying two research tokens when I should have been building units. I also built more transports than I needed. With the increased size of the gameboard, I had assumed I’d need the mobility that only transports can provide. And that was true to some degree, but what I really needed more of was brute force, especially in China. I also should have waited a turn before shifting my focus over to naval units. Together, these things might well have allowed me to eliminate China, thus eliminating one of the three sources of new Allied units to my theater (the other two being the India factory and the U.S. West Coast factory).

    Suppose instead that I had taken your advice, and had evacuated from China. This would have lost me the China income, plus the income from Hong Kong, Manchuria, and Kwangtung. Under this strategy, my main short-term goal would obviously be to take India and the Pacific Islands. The long-term goal would be to have an income greater than, or equal to, that of the U.S., to prevent the long-term economic/naval domination by the American player. (If the American player can afford to spend X IPCs in the Pacific, the Japanese player had better be able to spend at least X, or else over the long term he is doomed.) To obtain that >U.S. income, I would need South Asia + Pacific islands + some Soviet territory. Without looking at the gameboard, I don’t know whether this would be enough.

    Withdrawing from China does have one advantage: it allows you to simply ignore the 10 - 14 Soviet units (I don’t remember the exact number) that would otherwise be in a position to threaten Manchuria. You’d just let them sit there over the short term, while focusing on conquering British territory and Pacific islands. This accomplished, step 2 could be a massive invasion of the eastern Soviet Union. (Unless of course you chose to let that force continue sitting there while invading from the south. An Indian Ocean focus would also position you to go after Africa.)

    I’m not yet sure what Japan’s best strategic move is. All I know is that in my one and only game of this, I simply didn’t have the strength to accomplish everything I set out to achieve. Instead of the “conquer everything at once” strategy of Revised, it may be necessary to focus on obtaining overwhelming local supremacy in one theater after another–especially if the U.S. is throwing everything it has into the Pacific. The Axis starts off at a severe economic disadvantage. I suspect that over the long term, it may need the China income if it is to overcome that disadvantage.

    Some of the ideas I’ve read on this forum make sense. For example, Japan would be much better off conquering India on J2 than it would be in conquering the Philippines on J1. If Japan can prevent the U.K. from building a factory in India (or else immediately take the factory if built), it would solve a lot of the problems I encountered that game. With no new British units in that theater, and with the extra income from India, Japan would be in a strong position to deliver decisive force to China and that large eastern Soviet force. If the first domino (India) falls, China and the eastern Soviet Union are very likely to follow. But if the Allies can hold onto an India complex early game, and if they can bog down Japan’s advance into China, and if the U.S. devotes everything to the Pacific, things would look very grim for Japan.



  • Oh, wall of text!  😮 Seems you played with the true setup. Well, let’s suppose you are true and China not needs new units or conserve her lone and last fighter round 1. If true, at least one thing must be modded: China should be able of attacking Japanese controled territories, as FIC, Burma or India (and even german and italian occupied ones if you ask me). If not, we’ll see gamey strats here and there.



  • Yea, pretty reasonable stuff, Craig  🙂

    Just a item: in Revised, techs were forbidden for competitive play in most places, even if tech were mandatory in OOB rules. Maybe the same will happen with China not being able of go out of China: mandatory in OOB, but ignored rule in league games or even in LH rules next versions


  • '10

    @Funcioneta:

    Yea, pretty reasonable stuff, Craig  🙂

    Just a item: in Revised, techs were forbidden for competitive play in most places, even if tech were mandatory in OOB rules. Maybe the same will happen with China not being able of go out of China: mandatory in OOB, but ignored rule in league games or even in LH rules next versions

    I agree, what if you are just very good or lucky with CHINA?  In a game of Pacific I played once, to the surprise of all players… with a little dice luck and some poor Japanese decisions CHINA became not only a nuisance but a TRUE THREAT!  It would seem silly to me that if CHINA was lucky enough to stand on its own two feet ans expel the invaders…  They would sit on thier hands when they had the Japanese on the run in Asia.

    (If this game is ever changed so CHINA is a 7th player this will have to be the case)



  • The war game: world war 2 allows that to be done because china is its own player.

    You cannot avoid china at all because of its power the only problem i have with it is were the industrial complex is and the only reason it is there is actually because of how it can touch the water.  The game is very realistic for adding china italy is added. normally for 6 players because there is 8 powers germany, japan, china. italy, france, ussr, gb and usa. normally they say they would play as 6 players so italy/ china would be played for 1 or all allied players or 5 players so china/ italy played by all or 1 player.  france is for d-day.  Also i would like to pinot out this game is similiar to a&a except for the dice is 12 not 6.  Anyways chian in that game is playable.

    Avoiding china i beleive many will not since it is quite away to deplinish the forces of asia for the allies and gives a little ipc’s for the cost of few men.

    In all in all there will be probably a few who will not go for asia but thats all good more men to supply eastern/western sea front.


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